In the interest of generating more Biblically-based dialogue here, I thought it would be useful to post a Q&A blog where readers can leave questions in the comment section and I’ll provide my take on it from a Biblical standpoint. I’m really not interested in who said what to whom, which is easy to fall into when you’re having a historical discussion. Nevertheless, that’s just not why I started this blog.
Instead, I’m interested in having Biblically grounded, spiritually mature conversations about the church and the Bible with those who are sincere in trying to sort through the many issues raised by the SCOC sect. I’ll provide my point of view and you can provide yours.
Rules of the road for this exercise:
- Questions must be sincere.
- Questions must be able to be answered from the Bible.
- I’m not afraid of hard questions.
- I’m not an authority. I will simply give my honest opinion based on my understanding of scripture.
- Don’t expect 24/7 responses. It might take me awhile to respond to more detailed questions. I work full time and have a big family I kind of like to spend time with. 😉
I haven’t decided how to format this yet, so I’ll play it by ear. I may answer in the comment section as part of a conversation, or if it needs more space, I may answer in its own post.
Ready? Go!
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Kevin or anyone really,
Don't you think James 5:16 confess your faults one to another………. is talking about public confessions?
The scriptures has this way of speaking to an individual or to a congregation. See Mathew 18:14-17, Luke17:1-4, 1john1:9, on these scriptures one needs to be careful of the concision ( to edit down or to mutilate). I heard one individual insist that 1John1:9 (incorrectly) meant to confess to God only. I showed him James5:16. He eventually consented partially, because he could not explain away James5:16. but he stated James5:16 had no other scripture to compare it to, so I refer him and you to Luke17;3-4 "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if… Read more »
@Nene Here's an article about Stanton's practice of public confession and my take on it from the scriptures.
I have taken it to mean that if we struggle with a particular sin or fault that if we confess that sin or share the fact we are struggling with it we can receive help from those we confess our sins to through their prayers and encouragement. Confess meaning admit, not asking for forgiveness in this case. I do believe if we sin against someone we should make things right by telling them we are sorry for what we have done to them but not based on this scripture. I don't believe that this scripture means to stand up and… Read more »
Amen anonymous @ 8:36. I agree. Nene, public confession is only when a blatant, brazen sin has been done in front of the whole church. The concept works wonderfully when someone opens up with another with their problems, who they can trust, and they receive help and prayer. It backfires horribly when preachers attempt to use others shortcomings to boost their own power and prestige. Happens all the time in Stanton's churches. Someone will confess being late, or falling asleep, or running a stop sign and they begin to be treated as spiritually inferior. So the whole church is stagnant,… Read more »
The foundation for a dysfunctional relationship is one of a dominate and a submissive. The foundation for a healthy relationship is for both sides to be treated as equals. I understand Martin Luther's anger at the sins of leadership; that is the broadcasting of gossip throughout the brotherhood and passing this off as "teaching." My first teacher, who started the church in Prescott AZ was one of the greatest gossips I had ever known. I never had to wonder what was going on in any other church because he was a confidant of the evangelist in Spring Valley and whatever… Read more »
Anon in Phoenix, my church history is rusty… what are the initials of the preacher from Albuquerque? And are the initials of the preacher who started Prescott DS?
Put it right out there, Anonymous at 6:01. So much for allowing the grace of anonymity as I see you have. What is your name? I'm sure you are not as pure as the driven snow.
LOL. Nice initials anon in Phx.
Dear concerned, knowing the three parts of the human mind (the arrogant, the conscience and the lust) as I do and that only one part, the arrogant mind is capable of violence I do not post my name. Yes Christians are capable of violence and one man in particular here in Phoenix has a very bad temper and has abused his children, threaten his brethren, and threaten his coworkers. So no I will not submit to your request to post my name. My anonymity is for my protection and the protection of my family. And yes, I do see the… Read more »
LOL, Anon in Phx. You sure use initials effectively to communicate:) I am like you, I refuse to be commanded by people not commanded by the Bible. Yes, completely agree, it is sensationalism, and your sentence "taking gossip and passing it off as "teaching" is oh so true. Truer words may never have been said of Stanton's methods. But it sure is effective at keeping people in check. People are so scared to speak out, because if they do, their own backyards will be exposed for all to see. Since we all have backyards, this destroys love, because you cannot… Read more »
Anon in phx how can you murmur on the internet and then cast stones at others? Q&A
Now that is a good and fair point J.F. I believe once again this all boils down to what people think the motive for this type of communication is for. Is it for teaching purposes? Is is to for the purpose of making me feel better? The possibilities of motives is endless, don't you think?
J.F. define murmuring. My purpose for sharing my experiences is simple: to expose false doctrines and abusive teachers and hate filled christians. Hazel convinced one man, named Chris, that his wife was crazy (which was false.) D.S. first taught me that I was a fool, and when that had no effect then he taught me that I was reprobate, and when that had no effect he taught me that I was reprobate concerning the faith. Hazel taught Christians to question other Christians sanity but D.S. taught us to question our own sanity, he worked hard to plant fears and doubts… Read more »
The teaching, if I may correct you here, was by Merie Weiss. Her take on masturbation was this; All masturbaters are not homosexuals but all homosexuals are matsurbaters. All those who commit adultery are masturbaters but not all masturbaters commit adultery etc.
That is not what D.S. taught. I am going on what he taught, and I would not be suprised if it is incorrect. We in Phoenix had to endure countless "Merie said" lesson from D.S. to the point that I came to believe that Merie never stopped talking from the time she was born until the time she died. Their in no complete collections of the teaching of Merie so their is no way to prove what she taught or what she did not teach or in what context she taught any of her lessons. I respect your assertions but… Read more »
Freda Harper has a near complete collection of Merie tapes.
Martin Luther July 19, 2015 at 10:12 PM To add, when I was looking to my brethren for help in my physical infirmities, I asked that they could take notes and share with me what I missed and even if they could call me to see how I was doing. The preacher from the south said that I was being selfish. He went further and was talking about this in sermons he did in other congregations. During the May Week I attended a preacher, I knew, who lives down south, approached me and said he heard what was going on.… Read more »
I have a serious question about 1 Corinthians 11:2-16. That women should cover their heads when praying. Why doesn't the COC or many other Christian churches practice this??? It was commanded by God so why don't most women practice this?
That scripture is talking about a woman's hair being a covering for her (it should not be shaved or shorn). It is not referring to a woman having to wear a hat or anything. It is my understanding that in the pagan cultures some women had shaved heads which may be why Paul addressed this.
I disagree that they are talking about hair. Paul said for a man to not cover his head. If Paul were talking about hair then all men should be bald. I think women should wear a covering during worship. Just my opinion.
I agree Anonymous 4:24. Well said.
I am so torn on this subject…If Paul was addressing this because of pagan practice of shaving a woman's head and there is no such practice in these times, would we still be under that instruction? Also, what about verse 16 which says "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God” Could that mean that it is just a custom and not a 'command'?Also, what if a woman has short hair? Should she then wear a covering during worship since she doesn't have her hair for a covering? There are… Read more »
continuing from above. 6:16… I know not to judge what's acceptable to God by what's acceptable in society since society accepts every manner of evil but you get my drift, even the church allows women to have short hair, well, at least they don't insist on long hair. interesting. How short is short, how long is long etc.?
I can't help but think that if you felt that God truly loves and cares for you that you would not be so worried about the length of women's hair or that a woman's head has another type of covering over her hair. It is obvious you want to please God and we do that by keeping Jesus's commandments, the greatest is to love God with all of your heart and to love others.Perfect love casts out fear. We are supposed to cast all of our care on God because he cares for us. I think God wants us to… Read more »
To those who were or are taught by the SCOC about the covering being the woman's hair. Many women teachers in the SCOC have short hair, how do they justify this?
Nene, James 5.16 says nothing about confessing publicly! If you look at it carefully, it simply says confess your faults to each other. Sometimes I think ones try to make scriptures say things it doesn't, myself included! The whole point of Jesus' coming was to break down barriers and to reconcile us with each other and with God. When I sin, I have put a barrier there between me and God and whomever it was that I sinned against. When that happens, I want to reconcile with them (God and those I sinned against), so I will do whatever I… Read more »
Debbie, did the Stanton churches leave the Lakeland congregations in your charge when TL and JL were sent back to Des Moines, Iowa?
Yes, the two evangelists put me in "charge". But after the two teachers were sent from the Memphis congregation I stopped teaching. I disagreed with the way they wanted to(and did) teach. Especially the preacher/teacher. A Christian would come to him about something and seek counsel, and then he'd rebuke that person publically. He said that the way to "work with" individuals was to rebuke them publically. Then one day he told me that the men in the congregation wouldn't talk to him, that he couldn't get them to open up to him! He couldn't figure out why! I suggested… Read more »
For the two evangelists to single you out as someone they could put in trust of the Lakeland congregation would mean after all the years you had been in the Stanton Churches you followed their way of conducting their kind of Christianity. What made you finally fall away from that group?
To Anon at 7:24AM: It started when we had a Christian from Alaska come to help the congregation. After some troubles, she realized she wanted to go back home to Alaska. When she spoke to the evangelist from the south, she asked him if it was ok to move back. He told her that of course it was ok! That it was her choice. She shared this with us. In the meantime, we were instructed by our teachers to not tell this Christian otherwise. They told us it was sin for her to move back as she had been sent… Read more »
Debby, I have a couple comments about your previous post above.concerning being rebuked for keeping your Sunday evening class at 1 hour. Number 1 – that's a perfect example of public rebuke centered on OPINION rather than blatant/unrepented SIN. (As if the amount of time designated for a class is addressed in the scriptures!) Number 2- I find it so interesting when a teacher can rebuke on something one day, giving all the reasoning behind their teaching and as soon as they hear about so-and-so 'lightening up' on that judgement they jump to the 'new' judgement and all the supposed… Read more »
I'm surprised that the southern evangelist told the sister she could go back to Alaska. From my understanding you're pretty much stuck in whatever congregation you're in unless you have one of the 'church approved' excuses to move. Am I understanding that the southern evangelist told her she could move but gave the congregation or teacher of the congregation the impression it wasn't okay for her to go back since she was sent there by the church?
I'm understand Debbie to say the evangelist told her she could go back to Alaska using deceit because his motive was to get her back into the hands of ML to reprove her. And then using more deceit told the teachers in Lakeland not to tell her that but let her go thinking all was well.
To Anon at 2:04 PM: The southern evangelist did indeed tell this Christian that she could move back to Alaska, that it was her choice. AND he also told our teachers not to say anything to that Christian to dissuade her from moving back to Alaska. When I asked why, I was told that the teachers there needed to deal with her, not Lakeland! This is what shocked me! And got me to thinking about the doubts that I had been having. 🙂
Debbie, I personally know GP was known among the teachers for using these types of strategies. The police call it entrapment. I called it just plain deceit.
To Anon at 1:11 PM: Number 1; I agree! We were rebuked for being so carnal as to only wanting our class to be one hour long! (This is after a 2-3 hour worship, 1 1/2 hour am class, and hours long fellowship!).Number 2; I agree! We couldn't believe how quickly it was brought up and changed back to one hour! when one of us asked why and what about the rebukes we had all gotten before, our teacher said that was all in the past and we now had a "more complete understanding!"Number 3; I never taught anything that… Read more »
Anon at 2:38: I most heartily agree! I call it deceit too. He lied to her, he is an intelligent man and he knew exactly what she meant when she asked if she could move back to Alaska!
Debby, by 'two of the four' I mean GP and his wife PP, TC and another teacher KS-female, was in Stanton, now has moved to Greenville. The four 'decision makers/main teachers of the teachers/main counselors. TC's wife doesn't seem to have as much say in things as GP's wife, although I could be wrong. Once a person drops a 'GP, PP, TC or KS said' it's pretty much set in stone, don't even bother disagreeing or doing what your conscience bids you. Regarding Sunday morning class ending at 1:00, I am not sure when it started, maybe about 3 or… Read more »
Anon at 3:33: OK! thanks for the clarification. No, I was never caught between the four. And TC's wife usually wasn't as vocal, she was wonderful. Very humble and kind and understanding. I left in 2006, so I missed the 1:00 thing. I don't know why they just don't eliminate the am class period! One church of Christ (considered offchurch by Stanton group) had a worship, then am class, and then fellowship. No evening class! I thought it worked very well!I didn't know that KS moved to Greenville, was it because her husband moved her there? By the way, does… Read more »
The new testament church rebuked people that were living sinful lives so they could make themselves right with God. Why do people on this blog have a problem with the SCOC when they rebuke someone so they don't go to hell? Is it not the loving thing to do when you see someone in The wrong to rebuke them so they can repent and be saved?
Also, to JF: the problem I have with the public rebuke is that a lot of the rebuke is based on assumption. While I was with them, rebukes were being done without first going to the person. The rebukes were based on what one individual saw and reported (not two or more witnesses), and motives were assumed.For instance, my husband and I were publicly rebuked for being late to personal work. One, we had no idea we were late! The time had been changed one night when we were at a home study! No one let us know of the… Read more »
JF, Rebuking people for living sinful lives is different than rebuking people for not following the opinions and man-made doctrine of the teachers. Big difference. It's rare when a person gets talked to privately by the actual person that has something against them, rather the teacher 'brings things out in class' and usually the whole congregation knows exactly who the teaching is for. Of course the person who was the subject of the teaching or rebuke has no way of defending themselves or disagreeing without being accused of murmuring. Opposition is never tolerated so oppressive teachers continue running peoples lives… Read more »
Amen, Anonymous at 11:24, and Debby Stevens. I agree with Kevin, I don't have a problem with public rebuking, when warranted. For instance, if a homosexual couple came to church and persisted in their relationship publicly, after having been gone to privately, I feel a public rebuking would be called for. But the problem with the Stanton church of Christ is you have people with little concept of how to love others, consistently rebuking others and calling that "love". One of the hallmarks of love is it mourns the evil of others, it does not puff itself up and down… Read more »
JF: Just one more thing about public rebukes…a lot of the rebukes are also based on what "irritates" a teacher. For example, I was publically rebuked in a sermon for what I would write on notes left for non-members to remind them about the non-member class. I would writeJuly 24, 2015"Hi! My name is Debby. I just stopped by to remind you about the bible class that is tomorrow night at 7:30 pm….The teacher was upset that I said "tomorrow night" instead of putting "July 25, 2015." It was a lengthy rebuke and very sharp. He said things about how… Read more »
I like that last statement, 'Conformity is not uniformity'. The Jehovah Witnesses have conformity as well as the Mormons but that does not add up to Christian unity. Good point. I wanted to also ask you where are you going for worship now?
to Anon at 12:03 PM: Thank you! I didn't make that statement up, it was something I read and it stuck with me!
I am currently attending a community church where I live. I like the messages and they are things I face in my life! They stay close to the scriptures and aren't hung up on legalism. But at the same time they aren't so far out there that anything goes!
Are you still with the Stanton group, or have you moved on?
Debby, I was rebuked in a sermon for not allowing my brethren to show up at my house any time they wanted without notice. I was given examples where people have been allowed to show up late in the evenings without notice. I was told that I wasn't a "man of God" if I didn't allow this practice. I brought this up before TC and he even sided with them. I brought up that if you say that I am in sin for not allowing this then you have made this a law as a sin is a transgression of… Read more »
Debbie Stevens, long in, long gone
To Anon at 7:12 PM: True that! 🙂
I see a lot of good questions and responses. I'll go through and compile them into a list soon, and weigh in where I have additional thinking to add. J.F. – I'll address your comment in more detsil, but I don't have a problem with "public rebuking" when necessary in extreme cases. The problem with SCOC is this is usually the option of first resort, not last. It is used more as a tool to keep people in submission to the teacher than to correct someone in love. It's also used as time filler to avoid actually having to come… Read more »
I have a a number of questions for anyone that was a teacher or once was a faithful member of the SCOC. Did you ever doubt what you were teaching? Did you ever 'get in trouble' for not teaching something you didn't believe? How did you attain the position of teacher? Were you removed from your position by force or by your own choice? Did you ever rock the boat or did you just go along with decisions made at May meetings or made by one of 'the four'. Did another teacher ever confide in you that they don't necessarily… Read more »
To Anon on July 23 at 1:52:So sorry I didn't answer you sooner, I didn't see your post! I will try and answer you as best as I can!#1. I didn't doubt anything I taught. That is one of the reason's I stepped down from teaching! Some of the things I was suppose to teach I just couldn't! And I didn't agree with the way that the other teachers wanted to do the teaching!I will share with one example. We had a young couple who had 7 children. The father was from Puerto Rico. His wife came to us and… Read more »
To Anon at 1:52: sorry I didn't finish above! My reply was too long!#9 Oh yes! I have regrets!One, I wish that I had left sooner. I only stayed because the two evangelists and other teachers assured me that things could be worked out. It took me awhile to realize that by "worked out" they meant that I would conform.Two, I wish that the group would be willing to see and admit to mistakes they make. Then we could all learn from them and continue to grow! But they are not willing to admit to mistakes, let alone make changes.For… Read more »
I was just wondering what are some of the names of places you all worship since leaving the SCOC? I understand if this is too personal of a question to answer for some people.
Or if you don't attend any particular place HOW do you worship/practice your faith?
We worshipped with another church of Christ until we moved to another state. We now attend a community church.
We have also had wonderful people to help us overcome the legalistic mindset that is so very difficult to shake! It skews a person's view of scripture, and hinders them from truly understanding what the scriptures are saying in context!
Hope that helps!
It's time for another Reformation in America. Not attending anywhere until it is what the Bible says the church ought to be. Sick and tired for prostituting truth for unity. I would rather die lonely and friendless, but at least have my conscience as my friend, than to sit in churches that are pathetic excuses for what Christ died to save, and since no one wants to rock the boat, the errors keep on keeping on. I tried many churches, but I wasn't anxious to pay for the pastors BMW, or to be part of a church that knew their… Read more »
I don't currently attend any where. I've been trying to read the bible for a while now and I feel like the "right" church will find me or I will find it when I have a good understanding of God and the bible. Until then I will study and read scriptures every night and learn what God has to say.
Amen, BICJ, not enough to go to church, have to know the Bible to know which church. Joseph did just fine when he was alone in prison, isolated from all of humanity, he drew closer to God. Moses did just fine when he was in the desert for forty years. David did fantastic when he was in the wilderness, with just God and himself, tending his sheep. Jesus began his teaching with forty days in the wilderness, spending time with God, and when he was tempted, he didn't respond with, "my church says", he said, "It is written". Abraham did… Read more »
Q&A Who/What is the holy spirit? What does it do? I understand the need for Jesus but what is the need for the holy spirit?
A comment was made on the comment section of Donna Bennum's Story concerning women teachers…I am going to quote it here to continue the discussion in this Q&A section…Concerned 5:10 wrote: Consider this. The teaching construct in the Stanton Churches is not scriptural. Woman, according to God, are not to be in the elder/deacon/evangelist/pastor place in the churches of Christ. It is sin. As a consequence there must be oppression even today to make it work. God's design has not been put into action with them so the results are human beings trying to make something work that can not… Read more »
Merie had to change the mainstream COC teaching about women in order to rule her flock. Since Merie started SCOC women have exclusively ruled (with a 'puppet preacher') or had an equal part with a preacher in ruling most of the churches. I would like to hear both sides of this argument because I have often wondered if the role women play in SCOC is pleasing to God.
Anon. Aug.15.1:50 – in reference to the question about women teachers & leadership in the SCoC, I have seen both sides of this, the right and wrong. Being on the 'inside' of the SCoC I was raised up with DW/C & KS. I strove to be the kind of teachers they were, forceful and strong, and dominating. I vividly remember the very first time I was given permission to teach/rebuke. It was a new babe who let her toddler son sleep with his blanket. I brought this to the attention of my teachers and KS told me to teach on… Read more »
Ewwww, the part about a child being unclean because he sleeps with his blanket sets my teeth on edge. The epitome of ignorance. Donna, could you share the current teaching on uncleaness in children, the signs and symptoms and how it's dealt with?
I was in the Albuquerque COC 90-92 and I new WP. He was a good man. I believe he is still working out his salvation. I don't know If I know you. I met his wife, and I was withdrawn from before the time I drifted into town. You may ask JW who was a teacher there at the time. They were all good people when I knew them then. I don't recall any such things as you describe. They are still working out their salvation. Where Did I come from? Anchorage Alaska. I do recommend that you all consider… Read more »
It was at that time I walked after my heart and fallen into fornication with a young lady at the Youth Hostle there on Central Ave. I told her of the Church and my troubles and my withdrawl. I guess I knew it was tale bearing, but it seemed everyone did that in and out of the Church. Tale bearing is gossip, but all gossip is not tale bearing. The kind of gossip we do not engage in is tale bearing. speaking of other peoples fault before we spoke to the fault maker. I'll speak of my own faults gladly… Read more »
This is in response to anonymous Aug 16th blog at 7:38Pm.
Thank you for your honesty Donna. I went through a similar situation with my marriage but with a much worse outcome. I was married in the church and the first week after we were married what I said to my wife came out of the teachers mouth. The preacher from Albuquerque, WP, had converted her into a church spy. I was opposed so much that I just started telling the kids "go ask your mother" when my kids asked me how I was doing I told them "go ask your mother" One day I came home from work and there… Read more »
Donna, I also admire your honesty and your willingness to share your life with us. It takes real conviction and change of heart to admit your past faults. I believe the scripture about confessing (admitting) your faults to one another so we can pray for you would apply here. May your marriage be blessed.
Thanks Donna for shedding more light of the subject i am interested in. The reversal of leadership in the family unit. I do not know whether my ex CF is considered a teacher in her congregation but she has been there nearly 25 years so she has expressed her opinion there. As I read you entry above I nearly heard her speaking of how our family suffered, how she usurped my authority, how she acted as a single mom in raising our two children. All those things were Abusive to our relationship and she like the church leaders can not… Read more »
KF:I'm thankful to say that I did not have direct influence over your wife's life or that of your children. We lived in the Midwest and PA for most of our time in SCoC. I can definitely understand how it would make you not consider me a friend. With your wife being in CA, she was always under KS and GP. I was never considered a counselor (thank God!). I, like you, am still striving to earn respect with my children. I pray this sect would fall/fail so those with GOOD HEARTS can have ability to consider. The doctrine they… Read more »
Anon August 16, 2015 at 7:38 PM That is really sad to hear. These are the greatest reasons why I quit talking to most of the preachers/teachers and they did not like that at all. What they called sin in my congregation is when you don't let brethren show up at your house any time of day without notice, when you look to the congregation for help with bills, physical help at your home, and sharing of scriptures from classes/worships you miss, also if you don't accept wrong full teaching/instructions/counsel, not going to them for counsel, not giving into the… Read more »
The Bible teaches us if you let someone talk long enough you see what they really are about. KF, simply stated your not even a believer in the scriptures. To quote; " It is hard for me to accept that so many people choose to live their lives by stories written by men nearly 2000 years ago. Science will continue to reveal the true history of those stories and will reveal a history that we have not been told because it it still hidden." Whatever you say doesn't even matter. Your on the wrong blog.
My Goodness Concerned! You sure are sensitive to some critique of Christianity. I came to this blog to get some answers and rationale if any at all to my ex wife's behavior and brainwashing. I have gotten affirmation that the SCOC shamed and abused the people who came to them for answers and help. I got that affirmation from the many Anonymous entries on this blog. There's been few denials of the abusive behaviors of the Preachers and Teachers. Are You A Teacher? Most of the Anonymous participants wish to remain Anonymous from fear of retribution from the SCOC "Faithful"… Read more »
I knew you would pop, KF, and you did.
I feel for you KF. Although you are not a believer the destruction to you and your family is devastating. I am an ex member of the sect and my wife is still attending. I always thought that every stand that my wife has made or makes is my ultimatum! Definitely not a compromise. I wonder how many marriages have been destroyed by this sect. It has to be enormous. Don't worry about Miss Concerned. I say Miss because she acts like a women. What's better,. A kind non believer or a so called Christian without any empathy? I hope… Read more »
Thanks for your support Anon @ 2:59. I believe as you do that Concerned is a woman, not a miss, but an aging old cosmetically held together wife of a SCOC follower if not leader. She covers herself with fancy clothes and adorns herself with beauty products to give others the illusion of importance. . Obviously Concerned you know me from the past, and you wish to egg me on with your critiques which intend on "Popping" me into a response. Again I ask you to Peel off that mask that you wear literally and figuratively and reveal yourself to… Read more »
And your still popping.
I wonder if "concerned" is really "CF"? If you are CF give us all the dirt on KF did he leave the toilet seat up? did he leave his dirty clothes on the floor in the middle of the room? Inquiring minds want to know!
No, Concerned is not CF. CF would not break the edict of the SCOC stay away from this blog. Only the SCOC leaders and their wives are the ones permitted to break their own rules. But they cannot reveal themselves lest their two-faced personalities and hypo-critic rules be uncovered also. Concerned is luridly loitering in this blog so she can pass on girlish gossip and make her report to the protected hierarchy. Much like any other institutional church, the aristocracy of leaders ( those who have the power over the congregation to change their doctrine and direct the ignorant masses)… Read more »
As I was considering the questions about women teachers and such, I had to laugh about an extreme rule the SCoC have bound within the past 2 years. Based on the teaching that women are not to lead and/or take authority- especially during the worship service, a woman is forbidden to redirect a fan (even if it to adjust air on the elderly), or touch the thermostat. But if a member brings their OWN PERSONAL FAN to move air in their personal space, THEY CAN SWITCH IT OFF AND ON AND ADJUST IT DURING WORSHIP. THE MEN are instructed to… Read more »
That is ridiculous.
I read a lot of articles from the 50's – 60's that caused a lot of the COC at that time to go off. It all pointed to the same thing. The lack of study. We all know that without proper study, prayer, and meditation that we can't correctly divide the word of truth from truth and false. They don't really get what those scriptures are saying, so this is their understanding on it.
I agree Donna! How about when the scoC decided that when a woman is offered the Lord's Supper, she can't even shake her head if she is declining to take it? The man has to just stand there until he figures out that she isn't going to take it. To me it was ridiculous, the woman is still communicating! Even is she doesn't move a muscle, she is still communicating that she isn't going to take the Lord's supper!I, too, saw the destruction of families. Many of the women were just like single moms, especially if the husband wasn't a… Read more »
Contrary spirit is the label given to those who do not obey the Evangelist in spring valley, or any of his enforcers. Once you have been labeled "contrary spirit" then the order is given by the evangelist in SV to persecute you out of the church and the appointed enforcers in each congregation carry out his orders. A person then is persecuted with a "contrary spirit", everything you say is quickly contradicted even if it goes against scripture. A double standard for sure: persecute the contrary spirits with a contrary spirit is the judgement. I once asked the preacher from… Read more »
Curious, what was the scripture in question? ( I once asked the preacher from Albuquerque why we did not do what one scripture exhorted and he replied "because Merie never taught that").
Hebrews 10:25 the question was about exhorting your fellow Christians as Sunday worship was approaching. The reason I asked him was because Sunday was dreaded in Phoenix, a real burden to even stay awake and listen to another dull sermon. As he would give his sermons I would notice he used less and less scriptures until one of the last sermons I heard which had no scriptural references at all he simply droned on and on about how some brother had said something that provoked an emotional response in him; he did not mention what was said that provoked his… Read more »
"I will buy one and add "the book of Merie" to my bookshelf right next to my book of mormon and my catholic catechisms." LOL, very witty anonymous at 08:10. How right you are. I probably have about a thousand "contrary spirits" in me, because I have disagreed with evangelists on a number of occasions. Not least of which was this last May Trip, where I conducted civil disobedience in their meeting. If I have anything but a smile on my face before I die, I promise when I think about entering that May meeting, a wonderful smile will cross… Read more »
It took me seven years after leaving the COC to overcome my short temper. I tried everything from study the bible to studying psychology and nothing helped. The church's only teaching was: your unclean, but I wasn't being unclean. Finally I asked God why do I have a short temper? God caused me to understand that it was in the second week of my Christianity that is, the second week after I was baptized, my first teacher started yelling at me for something that I had done wrong, and I learned from his example that it is righteous behavior that… Read more »
There is incredible power in the church of christ with the phrase "Merie said" Nobody really know what Merie said so I like to use it as follows: Merie said wash my car, Merie said shut up, Merie said give me twenty bucks, etc. No one ever questions you when you say "Merie said"
LOL. That is the truth. Merie said a lot of wise things, but not everything Merie said is the gospel. Merie said some things that were unscriptural. Prove all things and hold fast to what is true is what Paul said in Thessalonians.
Yes the COC says "Merie said", Catholics say "the Pope said", Mormons say "the president(of the mormon church) said. I am looking for a church that says "Christ said"
When you find it let us know Lol.
Are they still teaching that people should give at least 10 percent ?
They never tought this. That is Mormons I believe.
The Baptists are all about the tithe! and then some!
Yes, they absolutely taught that one should give at least ten percent. They taught against tithing but when asked about giving they would say ten percent is a good guideline especially if one received a blessing of an inheritance, bonus etc. it wasn't 'commanded' but definitely suggested. Donna could probably shed some light on the current teaching. Another teaching was that a person should give the same amount each week whether one was paid once per week once per month, self employed, etc. They didn't consider the collection taken up at a meeting for a needy saint a collection. Very… Read more »
Is it sinful for husband and wife to please each other? Do they still teach against oral sex? What scriptures do they use for their beliefs?
Romans 6:19-23. You should keep your body pure and not engage in uncleanness. I hope that answered your question.
To Anon at 8:48 PM: I'm not seeing oral sex talked about in the scriptures that you gave. And how does oral sex make your body unpure? And what scripture defines what exactly is uncleanness? In the OT, uncleanness included touching a dead body, eating foods God had forbidden them to eat, etc. It doesn't say anything about oral sex.
Please clarify your answer and share the other scriptures that you used to come to your understanding! Thank you!
I don't know if I would spend my time defending this subject. There are much better debates one could enter into with much more honor than this.
Also Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural.
So what is natural? To people joined together in sexual intercourse. Every thing else is unnatural.
Marriage is one of the most honorable discussions to have. Unfortunately this woman driven sect cares not for this topic.
my point with this wasn't about oral sex per se, it was how that the Stanton group teaches things that the scriptures don't. Anon at 10:02 am proved that point, they are making conjectures and coming up with a conclusion that can't be proven. In 2006 GP said at that May meeting that we can prove Christ only broke the bread once (for the Lord's Supper). I went back over every single scripture concerning the Lord's Supper, and it never once said how many times Christ broke that bread. It only says he broke it. It may seem a small… Read more »
I believe natural means man and woman and unnatural is woman with woman. That's what I am understanding. The marriage bed is undefined.
That should have read the marriage bed is undefiled
It IS a sin. I prayed for guidance on this from God and he revealed to me that intercourse is the way to come together as man and wife.
The male sex organ is to come together with the female sex organ and "it" coming together with any other part of the body is against God's design and is a sin.
I refrain from anything in my marriage that doesn't honor God's design.
You must have had a hallucination not a revelation from God!"it" as you know is called a Penis and you do not have to spread an Uneducated Fear of "it" "It" is quite natural. Nearly every species of man and animal have males with "its"And yes Anon at 7:04 if the "Concerned " ones would examine more than just "sound bite" snippets from the bible they could give a better answer than their own opinion. Read ahead and after Romans 1:26 and you most certainly find it is speaking of same sex practices between men and same sex practices between… Read more »
Allow me to back up my understanding of "use of a woman" with more of the scriptureFrom Cortinthians 1 KJV1: 8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. (Pretty clear isn't it)Well here again is scripture assigning woman the place of submission to the man. ARE WE AGREEDYour opinions and name calling are of little use to this sitein examining what SCOC puts forth as their truths. You essentially have been called liars and much worse. So defend… Read more »
I must say honestly there was a time I did have scriptures I enjoyed more than others, but since that time I learned to have respect unto all of God's words even the gloom and doom verses. The word of God does reprove me and then I know why the fear and trembling took hold of me. Why I cried before my Maker and felt so empty inside. Psalms51:1-19 Comes to mind. You must read it yourselves; There is no way to read it in part; for then we lose something from his word. You know the scripture: the one… Read more »
Learning Christianity from this group was a lot like learning Russian history from a communist: you will get a lot of history but it will be a little bit on the harsh side. The issue of "Merie said" is meant to expose a Charlatan (someone who is falsely claiming to have special knowledge, and in this case of Merie's teachings) My first teacher, the man who started the church in Prescott, AZ, DS, was a Charlatan. In Phoenix we had to endure over a years worth of his "Merie said" lessons. I finally asked him one day: How long did… Read more »
Should say "do NOT put a tape in the tape player and think you will gain understanding"
It was the utmost importance of the Levites to keep Gods temple clean. So it is with our bodies'. I tried to refresh my memory on this subject. Thirty years ago I thought I read "let there not be a sodomite amongst you." I now can not find that scripture. Oral sex is sodomy. The closes scripture I can find is Deuteronomy@23:17. So I do not know if it is a better interpretation or a interpretation that reflects a more modern universal view. Follow your conscience. If either party shows disdain at the idea, your love for that person will… Read more »
What are your favorite scriptures? Mine is psalms 118:8.
This is the wrong site for questions like that! Don't you know this site is to bash Christ's church and to let a lunatic like KF rant about everything under the sun. Seriously though why didn't these "Christians" on this site answer your question???? Like I said you are on the wrong site for bible talk.
Thank you for sharing your favorite scripture Anon at 1:12pm. I am a Christian searching for the truth and tired of man-made religion. This site may seem like it is bashing Christ's church but unfortunately what is being said by many of the posters actually did happen or is happening in the Stanton churches today. Loving and good people are caught up in a church run by people promoting their own opinions and binding them on others. WITMFTS if you don't like what KF writes just ignore it. There is plenty of Bible talk if you read the whole blog.… Read more »
What is the motive for this site? We are the watchdogs of "the one true church." We hold the church leadership accountable for the multiple abuses of authority, child abuse, and false teaching that go forth. What is your purpose here? In your answer please include an explanation for tying children down to chairs, slapping children in the face and then talking about it publicly and even naming the children who were slapped(so the other children can mock them too?) The abuses of the SCOC are long and well known. This is the fulfillment of Acts 20:29 grievous wolves have… Read more »
One of my favorite verses is 2 Tim 1,12 and one of my least favorite is Phil 2, 12. If memory serves me correctly the Bible was divided into chapters in the late 13th century and not divided into verses until the mid 16th century. It seemed to me that the phrase "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" was the cornerstone of this legalistic Autocratic sect. So why do we read the Bible like a line item law Journal. It took some time before I realized in the sect that definition of study was to search the… Read more »
I had seen in my time with the church that they used only the negative half of the Bible. The scriptures that teach about God's mercy were not mentioned or minimized, and the negative scriptures were used over and over again. After my first two years I was convinced that there was no hope for mankind, that God was only "doom and gloom." We never studied out the four gospels of Christ and most of the teaching was complaining, criticising, and condemnation of their brethren. When I studied the Bible outside of the group I saw that God is love,… Read more »
Balance. You must have both. I find churches are forgetting to teach the terror of the Lord 11 Cor. 5:11) as well as the mercy of the Lord. Hell is very seldom mentioned or even the very idea of a devil. As a consequence people no longer consider the fear of the Lord which is his treasure. ( Isa. 33:6)
Does anyone know with any certainty how many women are in the sect compared to men?
Real Men cannot be found in this sect. The men of this sect are emasculated to the point of total submission the desires of the leaders, who, I am gathering from above are becoming predominantly women. It's been mentioned that the male evangelists are not growing the church. Is it for a reason? Perhaps a selfish reason? Perhaps a controlling reason? (smaller groups, like this cult are easier to control) ( Ever wonder why US Marines are so willing to fight) (They exert mind control over everyone of them) Cults do the same.But the increase of female control and their… Read more »
I am a manly man.
Proverbs 15:13 "but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken" This is scripture used to establish one of the hidden doctrines of the evangelist from Spring Valley. My first teaching preacher was only discouragement and found something wrong in everything everyone did (except those above him in the church.) His constant put downs and insults and criticisms produced a sorrow in the hearts of all the members of the congregation. Once he established the fact that God does not like you and does not approve of anything you do depression set in and once depression set in then… Read more »
Who here has a problem with merie' s teaching? After reading every thing about her on this blog I feel more convinced than ever. She was a woman of conviction and loved the gospel. So thank you Kevin for this blog! 🙂
Merie Weiss's teachings have proved themselves through time. She taught old time Gospel and this is being lost in the churches today. The problem in the Stanton Churches wasn't Merie's teaching Gospel but rather the younger Christians hand in making judgments and enforcing those judgments. It simply got out of hand and Merie was too old to pull it all back together.
I hate to agree with you but I think you are right and that the church focusses on merie' s teaching more than Christ's sacrafice. I mean he DIED FOR YOU! He paid the price that we couldn't pay because he was sinless and gave a chance of hope to us all that we believe in him and be forgiven of sin.
Could you please explain Merie's teaching that Christians aren't emotional people. I can't find that in scripture anywhere.
Mere taught as human beings we have emotions but we are not emotional. 2 Tim 1:7-God has not given us the spirit of fear but of power of love and of a sound mind. When you are emotional your not of sound mind but your emotions rule.
Love is an emotion, as is anger, as is hate. My time in the Church I saw that the negative emotions of anger, and hatred, were most commonly expressed by those in leadership. The positive emotions were suppressed and discouraged by leadership, and it was a miserable place for all but especially for the weak like babes and children. All humans have emotions and reason. Emotions are like a horse and reason is like the man who rides the horse, and just as the horse can overpower the man so can emotions overpower reason. If you can control your own… Read more »
I think Merie was sincere and a very dedicated and Godly woman, and that her teachings have been grossly distorted and misused. She actually had tried to reign in the uncleanness tactics being used on children shortly before her death. For being 40 years old when she was baptized, she sure left quite a mark on the earth. The lesson is to take heed to those you leave your message with and make absolute certain that love and justice are communicated. I have a good deal of respect for her and many of the teachers in the SCOC. Despite the… Read more »
Martin Luther is it your hope to rejoin the SCOC? What is the exact reason for your withdrawal?
Amen, Martin Luther.
Martin Luther I wanted to go a bit further with your thoughts. The Stanton churches of Christ were a no nonsense group of Christians that had very high standards within it's members. They didn't want Christians to bring into their membership adultery, fornication, masturbation, alcohol, drugs and such like. They believed the bible taught them they must withdraw fellowship from Christians that continue to do such things. But the Christians that suffered withdraw knew if they changed these behaviors they could come back in fellowship. They also could leave anytime without repercussion of any kind. It was their choice. I… Read more »
Beautiful, Anonymous 9/4/2015 5:35, just beautiful. You missed your calling as a psychologist. They did have very high standards. To me, the challenge was inspiring. I didn't whine because the bar was too high. I was withdrawn from and excommunicated, not because of anything done to me, but because I insisted on speaking out when I saw others told not to come around the church, who really needed the church, and were not threatening it. I think I would prefer overly severe to overly lax, and the church of Christ has that. I love the high standards, which is the… Read more »
This blog made me seek to prove all things so I thank you Kevin Harper for that. I finally found God's wisdom and my life is transformed! I urge every person reading this; seek God's wisdom and pray for guidance! It has changed my life! Please seek God's wisdom in all that you do! Read his word. I love the bible so much. Every time I read it I LEARN SO MUCH! Please seek him in all areas of your life.
The problem I have with "Merie's" teaching is that is not really her teaching but rather whatever thought or impulse the teacher or preacher has they put out as "Merie's" teaching. I never knew Merie she died years before my time in the church and all we have left is the memories of what she said in the mind of those who were alive at the time which may or may not be accurate. Contrast that with the Bible itself where everything is written down and can be proved out, and you can see where the weakness is in relying… Read more »
I need to say that if you are a current member or the child of a current member and are suffering abuse, that help is available. If you are being beaten, slapped, pinched, poked, or any other type of abuse and want help please email me at: resident2013@hushmail.com and I can get you the help you need, to escape an abusive situation. Law enforcement is available nationwide to help stop abuse and if you are afraid to ask for help then email me and I will contact the appropiate authorities for you. God does care about you.
I don't remember any balance in the sect. Heavily weighted on the do don't or die side. Grace of course is a word that was hardly spoken. Of course there was some convoluted definition provided at times. I agree with Concerned that balance should be used in all applications of the word. So how do we convince or friends and families in the sect to equalize the scales? Jesus has several names in the Bible. Is purpose and existence is not to stamp us out of existence if we catch the red light in an intersection. All the best,
Very good post. Thank you.
Wow! is this for real?
Wow! is this for real?
Yes the abuse is for real. I thought that it had stopped since I left the church, but God has shown me otherwise. I thought it had stopped because I wasn't seeing it anymore, and God showed me that your not seeing it because your not there, the abuse still exists and people need help getting out of these abusive situations. If you have any compassion for human suffering please offer your help to current members or at the least be willing to call the police and report any abuse so it can be stopped. You can remain anonymous while… Read more »
Soooo, where is your proof of such allegations that this still is goin on? Or is it just surmising on your part. Please give illustrations, names, congregations, etc.
We know that the abuses happened, evidenced by the many witnesses who testified on this blog. I'm sure there is at least latent emotional problems with the abused. I can testify to the oppressive nature of the sect to this day. Soooo Anon 3:05 are you a lawyer for the defense or the prosecution?�� Has anyone witnessed or received remorse or repentance from the sect leadership? I pray the sect will come to repentance someday and make things right. All the best to all.
You don't publicly name victims, you want to add to their shame? I would never tell you just watch and see who gets detained by the police.
Ok. Then name the congrgation and the abuse that is PRESENTLY going on as you honestly (?) stated.
When dealing with abuse you are playing hardball. If the abuser gets wind of pending legal action then the victims are beaten in silence. In 2002 when two different teaching preachers in the LA area talked about slapping their children in the face(public talk given by both) and how did the evangelist in S.V. handle it? He simply move them to different congregations, the carpenter from Chino went to San Antonio, and the federal employee from Stanton was moved to Chino. This appears to have been done to avoid prosecution on misdemeanor assault charges against them( the catholic church uses… Read more »
What was the reason for slapping them in the face? Was it a regular occurrence? Was it for extreme disobedience? Either way I don't think most people in the church do this. I have not seen it anyway. Sad for the kids this happened to.
The reason is unknown to me. The carpenter who was the teaching preacher in Chino seemed to be ashamed of himself as he shared his behavior in his talk. The Federal employee who was the teaching preacher in Stanton seemed to be proud of himself and even laughed about it after he shared his shameful behavior before giving his talk. The is a clear line between sin and criminal behavior. The church has authority in the area of sin and law enforcement is the authority in the area of criminal behavior. These two men should have been told to turn… Read more »
To whom it may concern I have received zero email requests for assistance with abuse. I remain you fellow helper, please email me if you ever need help. resident2013@hushmail.com
Yes, anon @1:34. I too would like to hear the proof of your statements.
What kind of abusive proof do you need? I have stories in spades.
I have read many times on this blog that this Church of Christ did not get both sides of the story. Well we don't want to make the same mistake here. Before we can believe the stories told here we have to have the other side for right judgment.
Yes very true. Besides you can't condemn the whole church for a few bad people. Just because one person in the church does something doesn't mean everyone is like that. I have not seen any evidence of abuse in the church. If someone abused a child they WILL answer to God.
Do you think celebrating Christmas like the rest of the world is a sin? Please give scriptural reasons why or why not.
Give it up J.F.
Give what up? What a dumb reply.
I'M curious and I don't have my bible in front of me. I do know the new testament makes comments about sin; saying, (let it not once be named amongst you). Why is that scripture used to withdraw from an individual immediately rather than following Mathew18:15-17?
They do actually. I have first hand knowledge of this as my family member was withdrawn from. They don't just withdrawal from you without you knowing it is going to happen.
Some are withdrawn from and some have a get out of withdrawal free card. I have seen it go both ways some are favored but most are not. I was never a favored one and was withdrawn from, but after you come back from withdrawal you hold the stigma of an unworthy member. You must do everything you can to avoid being withdrawn from, if you value fellowship and respect.
Hey Anonymos Sept. 6 @10:12; Are you inferring that they will inform you and withdraw after they come to you alone, or after they bring one or two more Christians as witnesses; although there is the third option, when they inform you of the pending withdraw and bring you before the church to finalize the withdraw. Any one of these steps would seem to be contrary to the scripture as written in Mathew 18:15-17. When we follow one or two of the steps written in Mathew18:15-17 and (wink at) or (turn a blind eye to) the third step; are we… Read more »
Could you please elaborate more. A family member was withdrawn from after that family member went and spoke to the teachers about something that happened. This person ask if it was wrong. They told the person yes it was a sin and withdrew. Mathew18:15 says to go to someone alone and if they repent you've gained your brother. if they refuse to repent then take one or two more and if the person repents again you have regained a brother from sin, But if they don't hear the two to three witnesses then bring the mater before the church if… Read more »
Typo error: It should read if the person repents, again you have regained a brother from sin. With out the comma between the "repent" and "again" it could be misunderstood.
Withdrawal is suppose to be used for helping a person to see their sin and repent from it. I have seen teachers use it to force members into subjection. In Stanton CA congregation the federal employee was the teaching preacher and he withdrew from everyone who disagreed with him. He was later brought up for withdrawal for oppression but was not withdrawn from, (the unspoken reason was because he was black and the mostly white congregation did not want to appear racist, he was able to hide his sin behind his skin color and my prayer was that God would… Read more »
Anonymous Sept. 8. Are you speaking about HB as the preacher in Stanton?
Not HB OC
I have known OC for very long time and his wonderful wife. They are very loving and wonderful people. So I am very surprised at your post. And no. I am no longer in the Stanton Churches of Christ.
I know many people love their teachers and preachers, but when you compare their behavior to the scriptures questions arise. I was under DS, the man who started the church in Prescott, and he was constantly dropping seeds about how badly he and others were treated by OC. It is not just me who holds a low opinion of OC, many do. People who commit crimes against children get no respect from me, and OC freely spoke of himself abusing his own children before he gave his public talk, this is common knowledge. I can bring my children to a… Read more »
Should say "I cannot bring my children"
And to add about OC, he and his wife "borrowed" thousands of dollars from another Christian. She felt she couldn't say no as they were the teachers in her congregation. This was brought out in a talk, so those of you who doubt this can check into it. At the time, they hadn't paid her back and were not even attempting to pay her back. I don't know if they have since started making payments, and if they have repented and made amends or not. And to the "anon" who suggested that we bring two or more witnesses when we… Read more »
I agree, I saw individual teachers become "drunk" with power. WP, the teaching preacher from Albuquerque would assign motives to your actions that did not exists( this is called evil surmising) and then persecute you on the made up motive( that did not exist) There is no higher authority in a congregation than the teacher and they are free to abuse and use the church member and when you raise an objection you are told that they are worthy of "double honor" and are above question, reproof, and rebuke. When the evangelist would visit they would paint on the smile… Read more »
Who is OC?
How do they make merchandise of you? let me count the ways: borrow money and never repay you, make a public complaint like " I don't know how I am going to pay my legal bills" and accept a babes inheritance to pay your legal expenses, my mother just died and instead of sending flowers just send the money, and many other methods. When freeloaders and the greedy find out how generous Christians are, even in their poverty, they come up with ingenious way to ask for money instead of working for it. The scriptures are clear in example: if… Read more »
On Friday, September 11, 2015 2:59 PM, david stankowski ; You all complain of teachers and preachers. Do you do so in the name of Christ? Yes, Give them double honor and if they transgress the commandments of God go to them privately, If they repent, you have gained your brother. Answer me, For what does tail bearing accomplish? If you haven't done the above as yet; ask yourselves this; why are we judging our brother? Do we do the same thing? Do you Evil surmise? Do you abuse others? abuse Children? What is the different between old school discipline… Read more »
Well David you missed the point: there is no justification for child abuse. The wicked teacher and preachers control the one true church and do not receive any reproof from any member. To welt up a five year old is beyond cruelty; there is no natural affection in a person that does such things. WP, the preacher from Albuquerque was in Phoenix for over ten years and spread discord most of the time. I know you love WP, and you should being a fornicator; because he made life very comfortable for fornicators and adulterers here in Phoenix and probably in… Read more »
David, the Bible agrees with your council that you gave. It is very sound and void of the bitter poison and false accusations I see in the writings of Anonymous Sept. 13. Also David I will be your second witness for the good character of WP, he is a very just and good preacher, this I know for a fact. I can testify to the goodness of his character and am sorry this blog provides opportunity for terrible things to be said in this anonymous fashion. Many very good Christians have been evil spoken of here and I am saddened… Read more »
David, I did as the scriptures dictate in that I went to them, then I took it to others, and eventually to the two Evangelists. Since I had no preacher/teacher status I was treated like I didn't know what I was talking about. TC basically told me I was a biusybody. I spent years trying to convey what was going on, but it was just ignored and covered up. The congregation I came from was greatly know for having a lack of love towards brethren. Before I came back in 2000 it was trying to be dealt with, but nobody… Read more »
Be patient with me please, Lynn mm I will try to explain after. Read in the book of Numbers Chapter5 Verse 11 thru 31. What say you on these writings from God? Please be clear in your explanation.
David, I think you will find that most of the people who post here know and understand and believe the scriptures that you are sharing. Though I'm not sure what Numbers has to do with what Lynn and others are talking about concerning the conduct of teachers and preachers in the congregations.But what I do know is that, for whatever reason, you are not understanding that ones here are NOT accusing these teachers/preachers, we are sharing actual experiences! And while the wrongful and sinful behavior of some teachers/preachers is not a reflection of all, the fact that they go on… Read more »
Thank you Debbie, I couldn't have put it better. David – even though we can forgive those trespass against us, the constant barrage of not handling things correctly by the teachers and teachers can cause a lot of ill will from those who are suffering these things. Whether right or wrong in the ill feelings, God will still hold the offenders accountable. What some would like to see are the preachers and teachers to stop and consider these things. Instead of trying to be right in their ability to be able deal with others in this manner they need to… Read more »
I couldn't agree more. Harass, oppress, and abuse are three words that epitomize the teaching methods during my time in "the one true church." Some on this blog use the minimization of wrong doing to manipulate you away from the awful truth of what goes on in the churches saying things like "a slap across the face was done in Christ's day" well adultery, murder through crucification, was also done in Christ's day. To say something happened in Christ's day does not make it acceptable then or now. I am dealing with children who have grown to adulthood and will… Read more »
Lynn, After reading all of your writings and complaints concerning the leadership of the Stanton Churches of Christ it appears to be a matter of judgment concerning how needy are you. You are asking for this body of believers resources to accommodate your weaknesses and they do have a serious right to access your needs. If they don't agree with you, in some way, then you have the power and the right to separate yourself from that body and attach yourself to another body who you are more compatible to. And be at peace within yourself instead of entering into… Read more »
Anonymous :September16 at 10:47 am: Sorry you are offended by my perceived defense of the down trodden, as that is the example my Lord set for us when he came. (Even the scriptures teach us that!). But my post was not about defending Lynn, nor did I offer any "excuses for his complaint". What I was doing was pointing out that David was preaching to the choir here. Most of us here would love to see the Stanton Group following the scriptures, especially when it comes to bringing perceived sin to Christians. We would love to see the group repent… Read more »
Slap across the face! I was neither justifying nor condemning the issue. I was actually trying to show with 4 billion people on the planet one just does not define what is and is not child abuse and set it into a package all so nice and neat. Otherwise any time a mother covers a child's mouth trying to hush the child and begins to tap the child's vocals, ( yeah, You know, when we start hearing this whaaa(silence)whaaa(silence)whaaa(silence)… ect.) somebody, somewhere, could turn and say a tap on the mouth is a slap in the face! Have you ever… Read more »
AnonymousSeptember 16, 2015 at 10:47 AM There is a real problem when Christians look to their brethren for help in sharing scriptures of what classes they missed, spending time with them to exhort one another, and being empathetic to their infirmities as being needy. Usually the ones that think this way are really just indifferent to being their for their brethren like we are commanded to be. Regardless of what you think of those who are in need of any kind you will stand before God as a goat and be judged for you indifference towards your brethren. Instead of… Read more »
David to answer your question directly: a woman here in Phoenix slapped her 14 year old so hard that she left a bruise in the shape of her hand print on the boy's face(and W.P. said nothing and did nothing) The snowball effect was this: if J.G. and O.C. can slap their children in the face and talk about it publicly and the evangelist in S.V. says nothing and does nothing then it is okay for me too and every one else to start slapping their children around. When a teacher sets an example, good or bad, other will follow.… Read more »
Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, … desire the sincere milk of the word.
I placed a blog earlier on here inquiring what you taught on withdraw (as anonymous) and no one responded with scriptures. Opinions, opinions and more opinions is what is being broadcasted here. Again, I'll try not to give my opinion, but perhaps assuage your grief. 1Peter2:5 "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ"…. "Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded"…. "but unto them which be disobedient, the stone… Read more »
Well David I have to ask: if you saw a house on fire would you call the fire dept? or is that talebearing? if you saw a grown man hurting a five year old child would you protect and defend that child or would you get in your truck and drive away? Wait I think you answered that already. Milk is for babes, we are all spiritual adults here and the study has been done and the understanding obtained now is the time to act. If you fail to protect and defend your own children from predators you children and… Read more »
Fornication and Adultry? WP? I don't think so.You had better check you facts a little better.
To concerned on September 20 at 12:16: Sarcasm does not become you. We all make mistakes with the keyboard. The Anon on September 16 at 10:47 said "access" when I'm sure he meant "assess". Debby said "forwards" when I'm sure she meant forward. No need to use sarcasm. And don't deny it, I can see exactly what you wrote.
I Agree with Concerned and David S. While I have disagreed with the church on issues, I am indignant and angry that my disagreement is used to fuel others vindictive vendettas. I disagreed with the church and was willing to give four years of my life to be withdrawn from, and even consented to be peacefully excommunicated. If you are not willing to openly protest to them, then quit whining to the rest of us. There is not anything that I have said here that I have not said publicly to them. It is unfortunate that those who have a… Read more »
Well Martin Luther you covered all on my concerns I have accumulated in this blog. And you addressed it from your own observations and experience. Even more important you are speaking from the place of forgiveness and not bitterness. Love you brother.
Martin Luther, you said, "It is unfortunate that those who have a host of their own problems are allowed to denigrate, despise, and denounce the men and women in the Stanton Church of Christ.". This is a classic defense that I have seen to be prominent in the church. Whenever something is brought up that is being done wrong the defense, to many times, is that the one bringing the offense is attacking the offender. This has been brought up here before that it seems that some people, in the congregations, are allowed to get away with some things that… Read more »
to: ConcernedSeptember 21, 2015 at 8:32 AM Yes, forgiveness is key when we are transgressed against, but what people are trying to convey here is not a single transgression, but that these are situations that have become part of the churches teachings and actions that are continual. Not only has the church transgressed against me, in certain ways, but continue to transgress against me and other people in the same manners. So, this isn't just a one time thing. It has become their ways of handling things. I believe that the point of this blog is not just to point… Read more »
Lynn you are referring to the bully/victim tactic used by oppressors. The oppressors bully their brethren but when you call them on it they play the victim accusing you of treating them wrong. It is one of many manipulations used by the wicked.
Your not listening Lynn.
I'm not familiar with any successful people in history or in the Bible who successfully spent time complaining about how they were mistreated. The issue at hand is the unscriptural teachings and the effects they have on others. If anyone had grounds to say they were mistreated, it would have been Joseph, but instead of talking about how badly he was done by, and he was treated worse than you or I ever will be, he turned to God. It's funny because an adulterous president of the United States actually has a lot to teach us. John F. Kennedy was… Read more »
"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" This has gotten old as it was used to countermand actually helping brethren who are really in need of help. To many times people try to dismiss the truth by exaggerating their defense. You just can't cloak all points with one judgement. This is done with statements that concern not following teaching, not taking instruction, being selfish, etc. When we are in need of counsel, have questions, exhortation, support, or anything that we need help with spiritual wise? Our leaders and brethren. So,… Read more »
Well said Lynn! There are many differences between the Old Testament and New Testament, as well as with Joseph and us today. For one, Joseph had no one he could go to. For another, it wasn't religious leaders/teachers that did evil to him, it was his own flesh and blood and people who weren't Jewish and didn't know God.In the New Testament whom did Christ rebuke the most often? The Religious leaders, the teachers! Why? Because they were treating their people with love, proper respect and judgment? Not hardly! And being Religious leaders, they were suppose to know how to… Read more »
In a talk that TC did he told of an account where he was involved in a traffic altercation that was not his fault and the officer only cited him. He fought it in court only to lose by the judge telling him that even though he was in the right he has to side with his officers to help them maintain authority in the field. I experienced TC doing this to me when I brought out to him something the congregation said that I was doing and he automatically sided with them. The whole counseling meeting and Sunday sermon… Read more »
Lynn, do you believe the Stanton Churches of Christ are the true Churches of Christ?
I was brought in the off Church of Christ since I was a child in Arizona, Texas, and WA state. I have been to a lot of other religious organizations trying to find the truth. Since coming to the SCC I have learned the bible a lot. I did what they kept reiterating in studying the bible for myself. I believe the SCC to be the closest to the truth that I could find. My opinion on this, due to experience, is that there is a lot of truth in them, but they are not following the scriptures in too… Read more »
If Corrie Ten Boom, could forgive her Nazi Captors who put her father to death in the Concentration camps in Germany, then there are a lot of people on here who need to put their big boy and big girl pants on and grow up. We are not celebrating at your pity party. Anyone who has had one, should have learned by now, they do absolutely nothing. Failure, whether it is ours or a failure of others to treat us justly, is only the opportunity to begin again more intelligently. If someone has mistreated you, and I have been mistreated,… Read more »
Amen, well said.
Then why wasn't this the mentality of Jesus to the seven churches of Asia in Revelation? You are right in that if anybody offends us we pray for them, forgive them, and let it go, but when this behavior is the crux of the leaders in a congregation how can you be exhorted let a lone respect them? I have seen this to many times where people are more fixated on how the offended react to mistreatment rather than those who are doing the mistreating. This is a classic deflective defense. As long as this is how these things are… Read more »
If you feel you have suffered wrongfully, then get withdrawn from speaking out against the injustices you perceive. If you are not willing to suffer for others wrongs, I'm having a hard time understanding the spirit of Christ in this. We are told to go the Second Mile. Here is the Second Mile defined. http://play.simpletruths.com/movie/the-second-mile/st-sa/ The child did not grumble, he did what he was told and made his enemy his friend. We all have different attitudes, and I am grateful to be on this site because it is by seeing some attitudes that may not be right, and comparing… Read more »
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. We are told to sit there and take it from them. I did this – Matthew 18:15-17 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may… Read more »
Finally, to really address the idea that the church should report child abuse to the government, are we even aware of what the government is up to these days? Personally, no child was ever abused on my watch, and never will be. When even the hint of it came to me it was verified promptly and dealt with to where it never had the chance of occurring again. Who on this blog does not recognize Christians do not go to government against fellow Christians? If you don't you don't understand Pauls passage in Corinthians forbidding this. Obviously if someone came… Read more »
If I were to suborn (Anonymous Sept9, 7:33) to report a fellow Christian for slapping their own child to the authorities, I believe I would be in contradiction to 1stCorinthians6:1-8. That is why I said in an earlier blog, If you believe your (your) child was abused take it to the brother first. I don't intend to repeat all that I said previously. Follow scriptural protocol. Now to (Anonymous) Sept20,6:58am< Reporting a fire is not reporting someone else's fault. Therefore reporting a fire is not tale bearing. Please pray God may inspire you to understanding scripture, He gives liberally. If… Read more »
The -20 degree weather we get in Alaska didn't do my breathing any good at that time of my life and theopheline, predison, and simple inhalers would not serve me well as a truck driver in AK. We applied for food stamps and it appeared we would be denied. I gathered the children together and my wife and headed home. I had to stop for traffic and somebody plowed into the back of my wife's car. I examined the damaged and told the lady not to worry about it. She was thankful and we went on our way. It turned… Read more »
Thank you for your response David. I have no respect for men who abandon their children, your statements led me to believe that you had. As far a child abuse and reporting it to law enforcement I have to ask if you had a church member commit violence, or threaten to commit violence against another church member would you let that go? Now if it was violence against children you would deal with that in the church? Seems a double standard to me violence is violence, and those who commit violence against children need to be removed from the situation.… Read more »
Ooooooh! It's gettn hot in da kichen. I kin hardly wait for da church spies issue of this mad max mania.
How funny, Anonymous Sept. 21. I was thinking the same thing. Oh boy. church spies. Let it roll.
Awwww. Come on…'nuff or this stuff. Bring on da spies. Where is da bait?? I'm so anxious I kin hardly wait. Please, please bring it on. 🙂
Deuteronomy19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man..Look at Numbers 5:11-31, What would happen if the woman developed a swelled belly and rotten hips? Look at Numbers5:31 " This woman shall bear her iniquity". Had anyone ever noticed, this procedure/ritual seems to be well drawn out. I like to think it to be for godly reasons. 1) The husband brings the wife along with the offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance. He brings her and these offerings unto the priest.2) Numbers5:16 the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord:3)… Read more »
Sorry I had to publish as Anonymous Sept21,2015. The site wouldn't allow me to publish under my name David Stankowski
You may come in the name of Anonymous, but we come in the name of God Almighty. PREPARE TO MEET YOUR GOD!
http://play.simpletruths.com/movie/the-100-0-principle/
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.[40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.[41] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.[42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.[44] But I say unto you, Love… Read more »
Amen and Amen Martin, yet let us all prepare to meek our God. Electronic communication leaves the personal factor out, body language, facial expression, Tone of the words and peoples predisposition to their own understanding of an exaggious of scripture. Numbers5:11-31 is an example. I seen how it could apply and lead one right back to Mathew5:1 thru the end. If understood properly it is really merciful and compassionate and opens up a lot of understanding. I think folks misunderstood my messages. otherwise they would not have suggest I was showing no compassion. Now, I get some strange looks walking… Read more »
Where do you attend?
Obviously you are not nor never have been a member of the Stanton Churches to ask that question.
to Concerned: and that matters?
BIG TIME
To Concerned: Please explain why that matters! Thank you.
Yes, please explain. Y'all seem so bold, but I guess it only goes so fer.
What is everyone's thoughts on the pope being here. Does the SCOC still think he's the image of the beast. Or has that fallen off the concerns from many of you who seem to be so against the preachers teaching the church of the dangers around the church? Or is he just a granpa throwing out his thoughts. All of America seems to be in love with him
Lynn, still waiting for an answer concerning your thoughts as to whether the Stanton Churches are the only true churches.
I believe Lynn gave his answer on September 22nd at 5:33 pm, after the question was asked. Scroll up, way up. The comments are sometimes difficult to follow, especially using a cell phone.
I scrolled up as you suggested and couldn't find Lynn nor could I find sept. 22, 5:33 pm.
It's definitely there, I just looked at it. Try again. It's directly after the question. Lynn's comments are noticeable because he has the orange B before his name, his comment you are looking for is the 3rd orange B from the bottom.
The Pope is a kindly enough man, but if he wants to teach Christ's message of helping the poor, recommend he start liquidating the churches billions. Particularly the massive temples costing billions of dollars. Then he starts sanctimoniously pontificating about global warming which is as bogus as it gets. We've been here for thousands of years, and a bunch of scientists, with about 150 years of data, begin extrapolating tremendous fairytales about how our world is in danger. It's a tremendous shakedown, because there is tons of money in preparing for global warming and the scam artists are taking full… Read more »
Found it. My apologies to you and to Lynn.
Martin Luther: The movie ' Amazing Grace' is a wonderful movie/documentary on William Wilberforce. I highly recommend it.
Thank you Concerned,
I couldn't agree more with Martin Luther. I am most concerned with corruption is church leadership. "We will judge our brethren Merie said" and "I have a responsibility to keep the church clean" are two cliches that are used to give the power of acceptance or rejection to each individual teacher in every congregation. This absolute power over the salvation of others is used to empower the teacher. If you do not please you individual teacher you are rejected and then persecuted until you leave the church. Many have used these understandings to get rid of brethren they don't like… Read more »
Enforcer is a true statement. One time I found a note book, belonging to a teacher, that had notes on various brethren. It looked like it was information that was brought to their attention from other brethren. In the early to mid 80s I saw a lot of things that I didn't agree with in that it seemed like the church was a police state of brethren turning each other in to the teachers whenever they "think" what they saw was wrong. There was little peace and people walked on egg shells around each other. So, I left. When I… Read more »
Lynn you touched on a subject that is at the heart of what is wrong with the SCOC; church spies. It was explained to me at a Spring Valley fellowship by an ex navy man, J.S., in front of the evangelist from S.V. that from Genesis 4:9 Cain's retort to God "am I my brothers keeper?" and he went on to explain that yes we are to be our brothers keeper and to report to the teacher when we see things that are not right. This was taken to great extremes in Phoenix and Prescott valley churches. Your notebook was… Read more »
One of the biggest reasons why my congregation treated me the way they did is because they strongly believed that they could come to your house any day or time they felt like without notice, even if is after midweek class. I asked if they could show me a little courtesy and call to see if I felt okay to receive with all of the pain meds a chronic pain. It was taught in a sermon that I wasn't a man of God because I wouldn't allow what they wanted. They made this a sin. I strongly believe I was… Read more »
Lynn, you touched on a subject that bothered me while I was with the Stanton group. Ones were being rebuked based on very little 'evidence", usually on one person's say so or the teacher's emotions. When the teacher was asked, privately, for an example of the "misdeed" the person was accused of, he had none. I was even rebuked for things his wife was doing, he told me himself! He just couldn't face her himself, so he used me. he said he was hoping she would "get the message!" (She didn't!) And he never did correct it or confront her.The… Read more »
Whoever wrote the diatribe on 'spies' is most certainly watching to many movies', I was in the Stanton churches for a very long time and this is the most ridiculous stuff I have ever heard. A spy system and I mean a very James Bond kind of system. Actually I have to say it was good reading. What a joke.
I don't think it was quite a literal you are taking it, but there are those, as I have seen, who have no problem running to the leaders with anything they believe to be wrong and the sad part of it is that there are to many things that are misconstrued and dealt with in a rebuking and/or judging manner that is harmful to whomever it is about. I have first hand seen these things happen. There is a couple in the Tacoma congregation, who have been in the church since the late 70's who have taken things that were… Read more »
Kevin Harper; do you post blogs under the name of Anonymous?
Curious, I believe Martin Luther is babysitting the blog while Kevin Harper does bigger and better things.
Kevin are you posting as Anonymous on your own web site? That would seem strange.
Spies far fetched? Everyone worshipped Jim Jones as God until he held them down and had his "angels" squirt cyanide koolaid into their mouths( and yes it was murder and not a mass suicide). Some must get out their brush and bucket and whitewash their evils done in the name of Christ, and minimize anywrong doings. Pull you head out of the sand, start thinking with the reasoning part of your mind and not the emotional part of the mind. If there church is true and right how come Christ is seldom taught about; rarely is their a lesson out… Read more »
You are looking at all of this through the wrong end of the telescope. Comparing Jim Jones with the Stanton Churches is a total misrepresentation. You must be carrying a pretty big grudge for a very long time to believe this stuff.
To Concerned:I agree that to compare the Stanton group with Jim Jones is a misrepresentation, the fact does remain that there are teachers in the group who abuse their position.Maybe the teachers in your congregation are fair and strive to be teachers who follow in Paul's footsteps (you may even be one of those teachers), but it's not that way in some congregations. The group mouths the proper words by saying that members can "call out", the reality is far different. When ones do call out, their complaints are either dismissed, or just simply not dealt with. The abuse then… Read more »
Not a grudge just finished studying about Jim Jones. I realized that juxtaposing SCOC and the people's temple seems unfair but, comparing one extreme religion to another is the point. The SCOC tends to be a sex crazed cult with teachings that dominates and controls the sex lives of it's members such as masterbation, wet dreams, defiled marriage bed and the like. When the primary focus of the group is the domination and control of others it becomes a destructive group rather than a constructive one. To compare one oppressive group to another is not unfair but it does show… Read more »
Amen, Concerned, Child abuse charges, Jim Jones, cult allegations, good grief, I had differences but they went nuclear when some people get hold of them. Stanton never advocated child abuse, is not a cult (if they are so is Christ, because he said anyone who doesn't follow him is going to hell). There are plenty of people with major grudges, and the worst are those who haven't learned that their own choices, no one elses, make or break them.
@AnonymousOctober 1, 2015 at 2:54 AM You are correct in stating that members are discredited. Unless you have a lot of status in the church the leaders will believe each other before they believe you. When I tried to contact others to let them know what was going on in Tacoma to DS in California the leaders here suppressed it real fast. When I emailed, in length, to the Evangelist in California he ignored me completely. After a few messages he told me wasn't going to get involved and let the leaders who are causing the problems deal with it.… Read more »
Well confused I think your are implying or maybe I am infering that I am filled with bitterness? Not really, I do have battle scars from "the one true church" as many do and I have gone to great length to show the thorns and thistles in the group that calls themselves the SCOC. I found that the battle between good and evil was not on the persoal work but in the church itself; between righteous brethren and wicked brethren. One man warned me about M.D. and how she liked to get inbetween husband and wife and meddle. M.D. liked… Read more »
Anonymous at 7:04, it is entirely appropriate to use modern examples to propound biblical doctrine. Jesus did not walk around quoting scripture all day. He had stories and allusions that people could relate to. I've never watched Little House on the Prairie, only read the books, I think it is a model family, and they attended church. I never mentioned James Bond once, and I personally not only don't have a television, but don't watch movies either. I don't even have internet at my home, don't need it. Since you cannot even get the facts straight from a blog, and… Read more »
I apologize Martin Luther, I lumped you in with the other trolls.
Does anyone know how the brethren in the Carolinas are doing?
I forgive you, Anonymous at 8:18.
Dear readers please be advised that Kevin Harper died suddenly this week of an unknown illness.
I am saddened deeply by this news. Kevin was a good man with good intentions this blog has given light and life to new truths and lies. It should continue to serve for Kevin's sake, if not the community that he was trying to save. His insights and knowledge were remarkable. Life is full of these turns of events. It will help us to remember what has been said here and to give honor to what this man achieved in his efforts for others. He will be missed by many. I enjoyed his challenge.
Kevin is my christian hero! The love of Jesus Christ showed through in everything he wrote! He has (and I say has in the present tense as to be absent here on earth he is alive and well in the presence of the Lord) exposed the Pharisees as Christ did, walked in truth, helped the fatherless and reached out to other Christians to bring them back into truth and the love of Christ. Though this is a time of sorrow for his family and friends I know God will continue to bless them. This blog is a blessing to all… Read more »
I don't know why anyone would post such nonsense. Kevin is alive and well. Anonymous 7:07, what in the world? Why would you spread such false information?
I loved Kevin for his bravery, for starting this blog, I will miss him.
The r:07eason anon on Oct 9 at 7 would post such nonsense is because he/she is trying to bait Kevin to post.
Also, note how "quiet" it has been since the congregations in North and South Carolina have been hit with the flooding. Seems we have a lot of folks in those congregations reading and posting on this blog, at least until their internet connections were severed. Hmmmmmmm……makes me wonder if "concerned isn't the evangelist in Greenville. Just sayin
That's a terrible thing to imply; that God is punishing the Carolina congregations for one man's actions. We should pray for God to help those in need, and now during their time of need. Please show some compassion. I use to think like you, that is: to look at others suffering arrogantly, Their suffering and my not suffering is a sign of my righteousness, this attitude I was taught in the SCOC. I know now how cold and distance this is, please pray for those in need and remember tomorrow it might be you or me in need.
To Anon at 6:21: I wasn't implying any such thing. I am simply saying that it's been very quiet since the flooding, meaning that ones aren't posting because their power is off. Concerned's post make me wonder if he is the evangelist from Greenville. And, he hasn't posted since the flooding, perhaps because he doesn't have electricity because of the flooding. Don't put words into my posts that aren't there.
While the children play with their ridiculous assertions shall we get back to intelligent communication?