Today’s Quiz: Who wrote the following quote?
“The members of the church have a right to question and ask for Bible answers from those who are doing the preaching. But this is considered almost tantamount to heresy by the preachers of today; and if a member persists in such he is usually slandered and called a trouble-maker…We should know our Bible and we should be ready and willing to take a stand for the truth. We are commanded to ‘contend for the truth.’ But this can hardly be done seeing that the church is ignorant and the preachers are content to have it so. Individually and collectively we should take scriptural stands upon all subjects…”
Answer:
a.) Thomas Aquinas
b.) Joan of Arc
c.) Bruce Springsteen
d.) Merie Weiss
Correct answer: d.
Any irony here?
When a revolutionary movement stops moving, it is no longer the revolution, but the establishment. We see this all the time in international upheavals. There is a coup d’état, and the leader of the revolution seizes power. He becomes a dictator, accruing followers based on lofty-sounding ideals like income inequality, or universal healthcare, or a roast in every pot.
Sound familiar? The Stanton sect is no more immune to this natural flow of human power over its peers than its secular counterparts. If you familiarize yourself with its richly ironic history linked in the main menu of this site, you’ll see the seeds of a movement that wanted to seize power away from what it perceived as the corrupt “preacher system.” They encouraged their fellow revolutionaries to fight the establishment by questioning those doing the preaching.It is very apparent that Stanton’s modern leadership does not want the same spirit of Biblical inquiry turned against them. And so the revolutionaries become the establishment.
Very insightful Kevin. Anyone who would dare question the established teachers and their teachings would find themselves in hot water and probably silenced through withdrawal. Some people have tried in the past but failed and were accused of causing division or sowing seeds of discord. One peep of disagreement and the 'fun' begins.
Absolutely Anon at 3:47! And often times it's just the insecurity of the teacher that makes them think that you are questioning them and their teachings.For example, my teacher VM told me that he couldn't get the men in our congregation to talk to him anymore. I thought that he was telling me that it bothered him and that he didn't know what to do about it-so I suggested to him to maybe call out and talk to another teacher and ask if they had any suggestions as to what to do! Next thing I know, this teacher and his… Read more »
I have to share with you all that after all of this happened to me, and I chose to leave the group (I did not "fall away", I purposely left), I had to wonder about all of the others who had left. I wondered about all of the rebukes and how much falsehood and false accusations were in them.After someone left, the teachers always had things to say about them in the next few classes and sermons. They always said that the person left to pursue their sin and follow their lusts.To this day I wonder how much truth was… Read more »
Well said Kevin! Oh! And BTW, Merie was withdrawn from for questioning those preachers! Very ironic, isn't it??
Sound familiar folks?
Irony flows like water with this group.
The amount of bashing and criticism shared privately between teachers about the people they are 'teaching' (and by teaching I mean bossing around) is pathetic, And as Debby said, when rebukes and 'exhortations' come from the pulpit or from the mouth of a teacher, defense or disagreement is out of the question. If people knew how much teachers rake their congregation members over the coals in private they would be disheartened. Nobody can question the teaching or have a critical word toward the teacher or swift judgement will befall them in the form of rebuke, withdrawal and a permanent black… Read more »
Anonymous 5:01 I think Merie did more than questioning those preachers, but I was not there and I am going only from memories of Meries letters and tapes, and maybe something Dianne once said.This is not to justify or condemn her.But this does bring up a question open for all to try to answer.At what point does a person perceive things unscriptural in a group and then the way they go about to correct it; especially when you or I may feel convicted on a subject or discipline that the group does not. I am speaking of the conscientiousness of… Read more »
I believe we have a right as individuals to "question with boldness whether there be a God." That's the Berean attitude.
But especially in a social setting such as the church, we must be humble about it, and proceed with love. More like a fellow traveller seeking truth than a prideful know-it-all telling everyone else how it is, or a disingenuous leader seeking power over people.
Humbleness Vrs. Arrogance? Trump Vrs. Mother Teresa. I am sure Trump considers himself humble.
That's why churches should have elders with a good measure of wisdom to discern when there are arrogant teachers trying to tear apart the flock.
That is just it. They, The SCOC do not see what they do as arrogant or contrary to the word of God. And when they come to that crossroads over a previous teachings and their new perspective on it, They Put up a white washed statement as; Well that was God who decided to wait on revealing that to us until now. So I wonder? Would they actually in good faith locate a person to try and tell them, their withdraw has been lifted, so they could seek a renewed relationship with their estrange child or wife? I guess only… Read more »
Another advantage to having Elders is their experience and age help in making good judgments. For example, they are less likely to rebuke out of emotion, or personal feelings. I have seen and heard too many rebukes based on how a teacher felt about an individual, not on the sin committed. An Elder is also more likely to be more careful with a rebuke, to consider all aspects of the situation and as to it's outcome.Most rebukes that I saw were more knee jerk reactions to situations. The teachers didn't try and gather facts or talk to the individuals first… Read more »
I wholeheartedly agree anon 5:19!! Here is the catch in today's SCOC. The men who would qualify to be elders have been acting in the capacity of an elder for their entire Christianity, some since they were as young as three years in the faith and in their twenties. The current leadership raised themselves while leading their flock using "merie said" or "Diane said" doctrine as their authority and with no examples of the correct type of leadership/eldership. 'Punch first and ask questions later' is/was the mode of leadership, sad to say.
Concerning Bishops/Elders: It may have been said during the American revolution (Paraphrased) Is it better to have one tyrant 2000 miles away or thirteen tyrants as neighbors? So be careful on the elder you elect; Weather he is a tyrant or Shepard. Kings can be tyrants and sometimes they can be good Shepards. But Christ says: Matthew 23:10 "One is your Master" an we are or should be His Servants. Verse 11: "But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant". Have you ever thought on how a servant should serve their Master. Is it proper for a… Read more »
Continued from page one Page 2 Anyway; It was at this Fast for Naboth, Jezebel previously had suborn the elders to find evil men who would falsely accuse Naboth at his weakest time; I suspect it was just after the death of his sons. But who Killed Naboths' sons? The scriptures do not say. We all suspect Jezebel, who moved people to do her biding. She was a queen and more than likely would never actually carry out such a deed. Thus she uses her position to suborn others. Remember in Acts 6:11 How certain of the synagogue suborn men… Read more »
So always remember they; the Bishops, teachers, Elders, husbands, or the Church are subservient to the Word. And that word is Christ.
Alternating between love and disdain is how most leaders gain emotional control over their followers. Love is the milk; it is easy to see and understand. Disdain is the meat; and is difficult for babes to comprehend. Babes are suppose to get the milk but in the COC many of the teachers/preachers are narcissistic and will love the new members as long as the new member is providing the required narcissistic supply.(That is undivided attention upon the narcissist, and praise and adoration.) When the babe asks a question, or points out an incorrect understanding that makes the narcissist think they… Read more »
I have to disagree with you Anony12:39. Jesus did not do it that way, John who baptized in the wilderness did not do it that way. Moses did not do it that way, but once he did mess up and God dealt with him. Samson real messed up and God still used him. David had a man killed but repented and seem to lay low for many many years, We do not hear much about him after his indiscretion with Bathsheba. Then there is Stephen, and Barnabas, Mary and Martha Paul and the twelve. They were All Good people. We… Read more »
Your correct David. I left out perhaps the most important part and that is I was talking about one man, DS. DS uses the method of alternating between love and disdain. I have seen him reject and disdain people at four days into Christianity. If you ever tell DS he is wrong he will disdain you for the rest of his life, he holds unreasonable grudges. One week as we held our non member class at a member's house off of 21 ave and myrtle, here in Phoenix an "off church" christian attended and questioned many of DS understandings. The… Read more »
Here you go This is what I was trying to say in David Stankowski 11:03 Don't follow man unless you know his works. I believe this is Madison COC response to my question I sent him. Bulletin Article for September 4, 2016MADISON STREET CHURCH OF CHRIST·SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 3, 2016 Jonadab or Luke? by Charles Blair [This article originally appeared in the Garfield Heights bulletin on May 11, 2008] In last week’s study we consider the power of influence. Each of us can make a choice what we will do with our lives. We spoke about the importance of living our… Read more »
Part 2 from Madison COC. have unhealthy thoughts toward his half-sister, Tamar. As we showed last week, temptations are all around. Here is a young man whose lust, not love, is beginning to take control of his life. God says he was so vexed for his half-sister that he was "sick for her" (II Samuel 13:2). Being sick in this sense is the thought that lust was growing so strong in his heart that he no longer cared for God's wishes for his life. The growth of lust for things that God does not want us to have is small… Read more »
As I was reading this post it reminds me of some in the Des Moines congregation who always attempted to discuss the meaning of scriptures, as they were very studious. What would follow, if the exegesis went against current understanding, was a stern rebuke. Then would follow someone getting "sat down". Then due to he 'past' of some(which we ALL have) they would dig themselves a hole in the ground, considering themselves unworthy to lift their face to God- all because a 'teacher' did not approve of the light in which scripture was shared. Months or years would follow, with… Read more »
Very true description Donna. Ever notice how many people who have been in the church for DECADES have absolutely no credibility because of something that happened years and years ago? They are forever destined to keep their mouth shut, keep their opinions to themselves, and to obey the counsel of the 'teacher', incapable of making a judgement about their own life again.
I saw the same thing in Phoenix. It was a quick decision, either you were an insider or you were rejected. WP, the preacher from Albuquerque, spoke openly about having an inner circle in Phoenix that made the decisions for the whole Phoenix church and "those on the outside just wanted to be insiders." So much resistance built up to WP that no agreement could be reached on anything in business, such as: were to rent a new building for worship, that WP started using the preacher teacher rule and just announced how things were going to be done and… Read more »
One of the clearest signs of the falsehood is how new preachers and teachers are selected. We were told that every man is expected to preach, but the men chosen to serve at the Lords table and the women chosen to teach in class caused one to wonder. One of the Donnely boys (his mother sat at the feet of Merie) got baptized at age 19 and then his high school girlfriend got baptized and they were married in the church. It was a short time latter he was selected to preach and then him and his new wife were… Read more »
RU refering to your mate?
No, I'm not.
I would like to discuss how teachers in the SCOC reach the 'must-be-counseled-with/must-be-obeyed/the-teacher's-opinion-is-fact' status. Some of the people who have told their stories might be able to shed some light from an insider's perspective. Please share.
It's the "murmuring" charge. Anyone speaking against the teachers are following after the sin of Korah and hos followers who grumbled against Moses and had to be destroyed. The chief difference being, of course, that God spoke directly and audibly Moses. Minor difference.
Anon 4:40- from my standpoint I believe it is a process over quite a period of time in most cases. I remember the first time my teachers told me to teach on something I took to them about a young sister. Pride swells in you when you see that you are approved by your teachers. The more you conform to their teachings AND take information to them about other Christians (esp. Your spouse), and don't question anything they say or do- you will go far being their pawn. When you disagree or take a sin to a teacher – you're… Read more »
Thank you for your input Donna, it serves to confirm my belief that every member of each congregation was a church spy (tattletale) in an effort to gain favor with the teacher. The rank of babe is the lowest, then spy, then enforcer. The ranks are unwritten but clearly exist. If you are not accepted as a spy you do not advance and are stuck at the rank of babe. It eleven years in the church I was still being called a babe.
This too, confirms my suspicion, why there are so many "loveless" marriage in the Stanton group. Being required to spy(tattletale) on your spouse and report back to the teacher causes many men not to speak to their wives. i never saw any of the great romances between the lovers in the COC, no great love stories of christian husband and wife, just quite separation from each other, sad really sad.
Actually any one murmuring against a teacher are actually following what the Grecian have done in Acts 6:1-5, and perhaps in the book of Joshua 9:18 where the congregation murmured against the princes of Israel. It is still complaining against them and in the new testament it is discouraged. When your complaint contains false information then it becomes withdraw able. But Kevin is correct about Korah and his men; they murmured against God and Moses, the man God spoke to face to face and thus going contrary to God Himself.Paul makes reference to this kind of murmuring in 1st Corinthians… Read more »
How many Christians can you think of who were 'sent out' to help start a new church or help with the work of an existing church who were under 5 years in the faith, in their 20's? I can think of close to a dozen such examples. They either became a teacher/authority when they volunteered to 'go out' or they became teacher/authority quickly after going out due to circumstances such as their preacher/teacher getting sat down or withdrawn from. They went from zero to sixty in 2 seconds flat! A NOVICE with little marital experience, little parenting experience, no leadership… Read more »
I quickly saw how my home congregation was lacking in true love. It was explained to me that there were certain people sent to that congregation to deal with that problem as they already knew it existed. One of the preachers told me that we were getting a preacher from the south to help with this, but it never got better. I tried to talk to the preacher, from the south, about it and he eventually told me that if I didn't quit bringing it it up that they would withdraw from me. Mind you, I wasn't a complainer or… Read more »
I found this article on Russia and thought of this post on Stanton. Both have similar dilemmas…they want to lionize their founders, but their founders were revolutionaries who fought against the establishment of their day.
Tragedy or triumph? Russians agonise over how to mark 1917 revolutions
The dilemma is this: Stanton only exists because of Merie's open and vigorous dissent, for which she was "withdrawn from." But now, Stanton uses withdrawal to shut down dissent. The revolutionaries have become the establishment.