Some commenters here wrote recently about disagreeing without being disagreeable. As a result, I thought it would be good to write about how to disagree with people you love. That should be everyone, right?
I’ve actually heard SCOC members mock the saying, “we can disagree without being disagreeable.” To them, that’s false unity, because disagreeing and remaining brothers in good standing are mutually contradictory. I’ll attempt to show you why they are not—in fact brothers in disagreement is the only way we can ever be. That’s because the basis of brotherhood is relationship, not shared opinions, and the basis for maintaining that relationship is love.
If you love someone as a brother, as a spouse, or as a son or daughter, of course you aren’t guaranteed to agree with them on everything. But you love them anyway, and you tolerate a lot, because they’re family. You have a pre-existing relationship with them.
But have you ever thought about the fact that we have a pre-existing relationship with our spiritual family, as well? Just as we aren’t the deciders of who gets to be our biological, or even adopted brother or sister, we don’t get to choose who gets to become our spiritual brother or sister. That decision is above our pay grade. Who is and isn’t our brother isn’t our decision. It’s God’s, and God’s alone.
In fact, brotherhood is the key to unlocking the related and wildly misunderstood topic of “fellowship.” Fellowship (the state of being “fellow” followers of Christ, or peers, or brothers) is not something that we establish ourselves, nor can we withdraw it. People talk of “withdrawing fellowship,” but this is a misnomer. Our job is simply to live out the relationship God has placed us mutually into. Stanton is big on emphasizing that we don’t join the church, God adds us to it. Exactly. And what God has added, we don’t have the authority to subtract. But I digress.
In both our family and brotherly relationships, love sometimes requires us to overlook a disagreement or fault for the sake of the relationship. Other times, love might require us to express our disagreement. In both cases, the criteria for voicing our disagreement or letting it go is love.
This, my friends, is how to disagree with someone you love, particularly a brother in Christ. Disagreement is inevitable. In fact, it’s impossible to be human and to agree on everything.
There are good reasons for that. The young have not yet learned all of life’s lessons (does anyone ever learn them all?). We all start out with beliefs and theories about life, parenting, and God; then those theories get tested by experience and (hopefully) scripture. The old may have misunderstood some of their early lessons of life, or lived a large portion of their lives apart from God completely. Now they’re playing catch-up, trying to make sense of life’s lessons from the rear view mirror.
As a result, no two people can ever be in the same place spiritually at the same time. And that’s OK. To pretend it’s even possible, as Stanton does—that unanimous understanding of the Bible is absolute and required—is ludicrous on its face. That’s not humanly possible, and this is evidenced by the fact that Stanton itself claims the Holy Spirit’s guidance “into all truth,” yet are constantly changing their “understanding” of that truth at their May meetings. If the Holy Spirit truly guided them into unanimity, pretended as it is, they wouldn’t need May Week to make It happen. It would just happen automatically, like Paul when he obtained the gospel directly from Jesus Christ without conferring with the other apostles.
Romans 14-15:7
The scriptures that have had the greatest impact on me regarding disagreement between brothers come from Paul, particularly Romans 14 through 15:7. Read the whole passage, then I’ll address some key points here. He writes:
Romans 14:1-4 – Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
First, what’s a disputable matter? Well, if we could agree on what’s disputable, it wouldn’t be in dispute, would it? Too many Christians like to limit this verse’s damage to their worldview by adjusting what’s a “disputable matter” and what’s not. That’s not a fair interpretation of this verse. Clearly, there is great latitude on differences of opinion between brothers. Paul’s instruction is to accept our brother without quarreling about those opinions.
Now notice a few more important verses:
Romans 14:19 – Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
Romans 14:22 – So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.
This is a particularly powerful one:
Romans 15:1 – We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves.
We need to bear with, or be patient with the failings of the weak. That word failings is translated infirmities in KJV, which means an error arising from weakness of mind. This means our brother may be in error on something because they simply haven’t come to understand that subject. Or vice versa. Yet we are to be patient with each other nonetheless.
What can this mean other than that some people are going to be at different places in their faith and understanding than others, and we all need to be OK with that. Can it mean anything else? The real question is what’s our attitude and how do we act when we find ourselves in disagreement with our brother? Do we try to marginalize them and push them out of the church?
Paul gets even clearer at the end of this section of his letter:
Romans 15:7 – Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
We are to accept one another “just as Christ accepted” us, and this brings praise to God. Hmm. Let me ask you this: How did Christ accept you? Was it on the condition of a perfect understanding of the Bible, and all the ins and outs of doctrine? Did the Jews who were pricked in their hearts on the Day of Pentecost as recounted in Acts 2 have a deep knowledge of doctrine and the Christian faith?
I would suggest that we take this very seriously and think through the consequences of our answer. On the same basis Jesus accepted me, I need to accept my brother. If I was accepted into the body of Christ (not some denomination, church, sect, or cult) on the basis of the gospel and my obedience to it, that and that alone is the basis for me accepting my brother.
I would be remiss if I didn’t address Stanton’s go-to passage on unity, 1 Corinthians 1:10, when discussing differences of opinion. I discuss that more fully in the context of Stanton’s false idea of church unanimity, but I’ll briefly address it here:
1 Corinthians 1:10 – I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
The key to understanding this passage is (surprise) the rest of the passage:
1 Corinthians 1:11-17 – For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
The people in Corinth had serious unity problems, meaning they were literally dividing the church up according to their favorite teacher, or who baptized them. Paul’s letters don’t contradict one another. He didn’t tell the Roman church to chill about those different opinions and “judgments” and accept one another, only to insist that the Corinthian church be unanimous in all their opinions and judgments. No, being of the same mind is best undertstood as being of the same Christlike attitude, as he wrote to the Ephesian church:
Ephesians 4:1-3 – I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing [being patient with] one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
This is perfectly in keeping with his instruction to Rome here:
Romans 15:5-6 – May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you the same attitude of mind toward each other that Christ Jesus had, 6 so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, while we’re in the flesh, brothers will disagree. There’s no other way we can be besides in disagreement over something. This is evidenced by the fact that Stanton’s so-called agreement has to be forced at the threat of withdrawal for murmuring. The key to disagreeing with our brothers while remaining faithful is to seek truth, obey our conscience, and be loving and patient with our brothers whose consciences are different than ours.
These principles should be self-evident, because they can be understood from the Golden Rule. If I would like my brothers to be patient with my wrong opinions when I have them, then I’d better be patient and loving toward them with theirs. That’s not so hard, is it?
I think the teachers in Merie's church believe they are willing to hear another opinion. For example, in my situation, they were willing to talk to me about the concerns I have about their church. However, once they saw my mind was set, it was taught for the members there to stay away from me. Including my own children have been told this. At the very least, they have been present when the sermon was to avoid me.I was told by a Mainline COC preacher that he would like a debate with the teachers. They don't ever do that, do… Read more »
What happened to "we agree to disagree". And move on? Silly me for asking the question?
Anon 9:05, they have never agreed with "agree to disagree."
I agree with Kevin, the idea of agreeing to disagree is never an option. They would rather have fake unity (people in disagreement just keeping silent and following along) as was the case with the people who disagreed with the ousted female leader who pushed her 'Merie said' agenda on the entire brotherhood. Nobody dared stand up to her. Fake unity at its finest. I can't imagine the numbers of people who disagreed who either were withdrawn from or threw their hands up and walked away.
Years ago the church was very open to public debate. In the early eighties a debate was held in Boise Idaho between former evangelist Jim Mikkelson and a gentleman from the 'off' church. One of the subjects debated was the paid preacher system. It was a big deal and men flew in to attend. Gary Preman was a moderator for that debate.
That debate was before my time, but I live in the Boise area now and have talked to people who went to it. In fact, the preacher Jim debated is someone I think my mom knew from way back in El Cajon. There are former members of El Cajon who are still here.
So it is possible to just walk away from the church or quit it if you are a member? And then are you not shunned by the congregation who one minute your friends and the next minute not speaking to you? I still don't get it why so many people are "withdrawn" from or "rebuked". If only they would visit a healthy church and see how wonderful it can be to be a follower of Christ
Yes Jo, it happens all the time. People are not withdrawn from because they quit. It is definitely a good idea to just quietly leave rather than voicing disagreements.
Anon 10:24 is correct, it's definitely best to quietly leave without voicing disagreements if you have family members still in. If you start voicing disagreements, you'll quickly get on their naughty list and family members will start feeling the pressure. You'll be publicly rebuked, and if you're withdrawn from, your family dynamics will suffer greatly. I'm fortunate and blessed to have stayed out of their reach because I left when I saw the writing on the wall that I couldn't grow and stay there. I would not put it past them to resort to dirty tricks to try to make… Read more »
And this is why it is a cult? I have been members of two different churches in my lifetime. Actually I am still a member of one but when I remarried we decided to attend my husbands church which is very similar to mine Nazarene verses Church of God. No problems what so ever. I am friends with all my friends at my former church and have new friends in the church we are attending. I had no idea in my wildest dreams my family was involved in a cult. All I ever saw was the positive side of them… Read more »
Kevin, the point you made at 11:22 struck a nerve. You quoted your mom I believe, "Once they're gone, they've withdrawn themselves from the group, which defeats the purpose of withdrawal in the first place"You experienced the awful effects of your dad being withdrawn from for decades, even after he withdrew himself from the group. This affected not only his marriage but also the relationship with your sister, her husband and grandchildren who chose the group. And all for what? I know of people who have even repented of the sin that they were withdrawn from for and yet because… Read more »
I agree. I believe disagreement can be tolerated if you aren't too strong in your expression of it. If you come out and say "I believe XYZ" and that is in contradiction to the party line, you're in trouble.
In most cult groups strict obedience to the leader who demands control of all elements of the followers life, both psychologically and physically is the norm. These leaders then surround themselves with a small exclusive click of followers and will not tolerate criticism or dissension. This is the church I attended to a tee. Those that disagreed with the leader were withdrawn from. When the woman in Des Moines Iowa was kicked out many of her victims were heard saying "so I was right", having realized that they had been withdrawn from not for sin but to force them into… Read more »
Romans 14:1-4 The congregation I came from does not follow these passages. They have little empathy towards those who are not right on with their ways of thinking. They actually look at it as you are in sin for not keeping up and you have to automatically follow what they tell you without you coming to the conclusion of it. Doing it this way you will get a lot of people who aren't really convinced that what they are doing or not doing is correct. There is no foundation What the congregation becomes filled with are sheep that will just… Read more »
Billie Burke was a famous actress of the early 20thcentury. She played “Glinda the good witch” in the Wizard of Oz musical. The story is told that Ms Burke was once traveling on a cruise ship when she noticed a man at the next table suffering from a bad cold. She asked, “Are you uncomfortable?” The man nodded in the affirmative. “Well,” she instructed, “I’ll tell you what to do.” Go back to your state-room. Take two aspirins. Drink lots of Orange Juice. Cover yourself with all the blankets you can find. Just sweat it out. Then she paused and… Read more »
Seeking,
That is an interesting statement of that they "were in the way". I can see that too. While you are studying for yourself and trying to grow in the knowledge of the bible there are many times that their instructions were the opposite. I once asked the preacher from the south which do I follow, the bible or example, because they are not the same.
You can disagree with the cult as long as you don't ever speak it out loud. They, however, can disagree with every other religion and do it publicly and be looked upon highly by the flock for their "courage". But oh the offense you are if you DARE follow their example of speaking as your conscience dictates. Only THEIR collective conscience can be heard! YOU will be silenced with threats and having those you care about cut you off. And all because of Christ. Oh wait, wrong person. All because of Merie Weiss.
Once again no freedom of speech. My goodness no wonder there is no open communication. This is crazy and I know for a fact there are so many with health problems within the congregation even the children. Especially children who are innocent and want to openly talk with others. I have noticed the women doctoring among themselves for various stomach issues probably because they cannot be honest and say what they really think. Just an observation …
I have seen a lot more leniency on a lot of the "rules" and members attempting to exercise their own conscience on minor things. So depending on where you are you might think those of us who have had our consciences bound in the past might just be in disagreement over nothing. However, I do believe it takes intellectual maturity and experience (time), as well as a willingness to follow a truly Christian system to see past their rules and specifics. Ultimately, and I'll keep repeating this, the MAJOR problem lies in the lack of eldership and therefore lack of… Read more »
Amen, I do believe Biblical eldership is key to helping the churches reform themselves in the pattern of the NT. I do question whether it's worth the wait, for those still in and stuck in neutral with Stanton. There is so much to Christianity that is so exciting and waiting to be discovered once you get out of that oppressive mindset. But some may in fact be uniquely called by God to change Stanton from within. God bless, and my prayers are with you.
Seeking- I totally agree with you on a church having Elders. My church has 10 or 12 elders, and it is a beautiful work designed by God just as Moses father-in-law advised him to appoint faithful men to help him judge. I had to chuckle because an Elder at my church asked if the SCOC had Elders. I told him they did not, because, as far as they are concerned, NO MAN as of yet,has lead a life without blame- before and after becoming a Christian. in my opinion, this is merely another area of their ARROGANCE! Nobody is 'good… Read more »
Donna I came from a large congregation (by SCOC standards) and I almost hate to say this, but of the 5 preachers plus men there, none would qualify as elders! Not a single man there.
Now I had to wrap my mind around the WHY? And my conclusion was simply that the kind of man with the character and integrity, showing the good results from having lived a scriptural life, just wouldn't stay in the SCOC. That type of man would have either never gotten in or quickly have seen how wrong things were and got out of there.
Good point!
I agree with Seeking and Donna that those who are still part of this church should be asking and talking about having elders in each congregation more. In the 2017 May week discussions TC does say that there have been questions about appointing elders but they haven't had a discussion on it yet. The biggest reason I would like to see elders properly used is because there are major accountability issues in this church. Unscriptural withdrawals, rebuking first and asking questions later, poor understandings given by unqualified teachers, etc. All of these things would be handled differently with elders as… Read more »
Anon 12:43 you nailed it about Merie's cult. Absolute truth this is them.
To Anonymous 9:35 your comment about the ailments within Stanton's cult, I know the oppression causes physical and psychological negative effects. The Des Moines congregation has to be one of the infirmed bunch of 'brethren'. I left this group almost three years ago, and now I have so much more to set my mind and heart on, besides infirmities of my flesh. I can look back and see that I denied being depressed. Of course, because "Christians don't get depressed". Here is where the FROZEN FEELINGS come in. "I'm not depressed, I just must be under the weather." I'm finally… Read more »
Exactly: "Finding a thriving church that teaches love, mercy and truth has been a gift from God. Don't turn your back on all churches, just because of one (or 35) bad apples." The whole reason I started this blog is because I kept seeing the destruction to people's faith. When people leave Stanton, whether for principled reasons or otherwise (they don't always know what's wrong, just that something is not right), it's so tempting to give up on God altogether. This is not because of the *truth* of their claims, as I think this blog has shown. I think it's… Read more »
Good point Debbie! Frozen feelings is right on! I am thinking about what the Portland has done to his own wife and his own mother and his children not to mention his brother and their children not to mention what he has done to my family. Some put out on a good front whenever I run into them in a social setting Or grocery store or the mall. Of course, now I would probably be shunned except for the children who are always friendly to me and polite.
(Continued) as if I care I am shunned. I was thinking if he and his family left the church they would be down about 17 or 18 in the congregation so he tries to keep them in check too. Too much family in a small church can become dysfunctional but with the fact it is type of church would even be more so in my opinion.
Frozen feelings is a great way to describe them. Hardened hearts is another. God warned us about people with hardened hearts. Funny how they shun "emotion" yet speak about the "love" they have there.
For those of you who were in, how would you describe to someone who felt "loved" there (when they are going through the love bombing phase) what is REALLY happening? (overwhelming companionship and fellowship, being kept super busy doing "good" things, etc) I'm not sure what word or phrase best describes that feeling/phase of early membership there.
I would describe it as a feeling of belonging! You are made to feel a part of something important. And it's not so much love that you feel at first, if ever, but lots of attention. To someone who is only used to being in the background and never made to feel important, it's a very heady experience.Suddenly, you seem to have people who care about you! They seem concerned. You now have places to go, things to do! They welcome and greet you each time they see you-as if they missed you since they last saw you!And you tell… Read more »
Cults have a very specific and predictable behavior pattern. A cult is usually a short temporary religion; when the leader dies the cult falls apart, generally. In the beginning the cult is small and the leader is friendly and welcoming. When the cult gets larger then the leader (or leadership) becomes more dominating and controlling of its members internally. The leader can grow more fearful and paranoid and start setting up members from the group to spy on others in the group (church spies) , and even spy on outsiders who criticize or threaten the leader or the group. One… Read more »
Scary! But I do not agree they fall apart that easily look at Scientology. By the way if you have not watched the show that Leah Remini Scientology and the Aftermath on A&E and that will open your eyes how cults are ran. Of course SCC this is small scale compared to them but with the same results ruining and destroying families. Do not keep your heads down, stand tall and let others know this is not acceptable. Save your children and save your families.
True some cults do turn into major religions; Islam is one example of a cult leader starting out small and growing large and hostile but surviving after the death of it founder. Mohammed started out in Medina with a message of love and peace to all when he was small but in time when Mohammed grew an army of followers his message was one of death to all outsiders; once he had the ability to exert his will on others. Mohammed was a pederast in that he married a six year old girl and consummated the marriage at the girls… Read more »
Another excellent article Kevin. Disagreeing I'd have to conclude since no one will tell me otherwise is the reason I was remade a member after four months of officially being declared a nonmember. Than being withdrawn from quickly for murmuring and sowing seeds of discord all because little oh me disagreed with scoc. I'd have to say I began silently disagreeing with ways of the scoc after I got wet 20 years ago. I'm guessing many members silently disagree in some way, shape or form as well. I really began stepping up my silent disagreement with the hypocrite preacher from… Read more »
Craig, Portland preacher and teacher when I was there did lie.. they were telling me things that I was thinking and doing that weren't even true.. I kept thinking to myself are these people crazy or why in the world are they acting this way! .. They have to know they're lying or they are so confused it's pathetic.. I always have to giggle when you say "when I got wet" LOL LOL it cracks me up
I too have had ridiculously untrue things said and spread about me. There are times when a teacher or preacher starts speculating out loud about a congregant's actions; those speculations often turn into statements of 'fact' and can spread like wildfire. I am ashamed to say I have done the same thing. When a member becomes a teacher there seems to be no holds barred when it comes to discussing a members behavior as long as the discussion is not about another teacher.
Anon 9:06 spot on with your comments. The Portland preacher was the absolute worse example of a member that I was around. I too when I was supporting him as a preacher got caught up in listening to his gossiping and murmuring. It was as if he had a free pass. Seems to be a pattern with preachers and teachers. Others have shared about being lied about as well. When I first heard the account of Aninias and Saphirra in Acts 5 in nonmember class that has kept me from telling a lie in 20 plus years now. Some obviously… Read more »
Does this church ever give a normal sermon about the Bible and have song and normal prayers? It sounds as if it is full of rebuke,withdrawal,gossip,slander,no food or drink in the building. I visited the service once after my husband died so I could be with my family that day and all I remember about it was it was long,boring,could have no water and long. Oh did a I say long? I did want to watch how my grandkids were in church and they sat still and were very polite and quiet. That was 11 years ago.I do not remember… Read more »
To understand the type of group you are up against Jo you need to study cult group behavior. F.O.G. is a type of psychological control and it stands for Fear, Obligation, and Guilt. While in the recruitment phase cults use love bombing but in the second phase, the indoctrination phase they use obligation. Members of the SCOC are told of the law they must obey now that they are members such as attending worship, then "keeping the Lord's day Holy" which means attending all day Sunday which is why it seemed so long to you; most churches only keep the… Read more »
Anon 2:31, I think we are on the same side, so please don't take offense at this, but "Thou shalt not kill" is not an accurate rendition of that phrase. In the Hebrew, translated into modern English, it actually says "Do not murder." That is what the English translation of the Hebrew Bible says. Murder is far different than killing; it includes a moral judgement on whether the killing was justified or not. All murder is killing, but not all killing is murder. If someone breaks into my home and has a knife to my wife's or my daughter's throat,… Read more »
Good points. Thanks for helping me on questions. Craig helps me a lot also now that he shared this blog with me. Without our military to protect our freedoms today where would we be? Probably living under the Nazi's?
Yes Kevin thank you. I choose the example based upon the teachings and beliefs of the SCOC from Merie's own book: "put up thy sword". The SCOC holds to a specific understanding of "Thou shalt not kill" and I argue against their hypocrisy based upon their own understanding. They believe this: no military service because the military is required to kill people but they still glorify military service by allowing drill instructor to praise the military, and be preachers in their churches. They are trying to have it both ways: it is wrong for others to do it, but it… Read more »
Anon at 5:04 pm-you gave some excellent examples of what I meant about looking at what they actually do and stop listening to what they say. I can't tell you how many times I was told that "we" would work things out! Or how many times I was told with "counsel" that it was up to me-yet I knew if I picked the wrong answer, that I was going to be in trouble. They repeatedly state that they only follow the bible, yet there are so many unwritten rules and regulations that it's difficult to keep up. I remember one… Read more »
Yes Debby, they face a serious dilemma if they admit these unwritten rules. If they write them down, then it's clear to everyone they don't follow the Bible alone. But if they only pass along their doctrines in person, over the phone, or through recorded talks, it's really easy to obfuscate by calling into question the context of the conversation, or denying the rules altogether. There is a talk from a meeting between Portland and Tacoma in 2002 where someone may have admitted publicly that they have these unwritten rules. If anyone has a copy, I'd be interested in hearing… Read more »
And no one was curious to see the rules? Or a handbook about the church beliefs before joining?
Anon 12:17, it's not like that. At the beginning, converts are not informed of all the rules. Those are slowly introduced as time goes on, like the frog in the hot water. People can go decades rationalizing and justifying the "rules" as just non-binding "judgments." But once someone openly or regularly violates those judgments out of disagreement with them, they'll quickly find out they weren't "non-binding" at all. They are very much bound, except for the privileged few or the quietly rebellious.
I attended a holiday meeting in Vallejo where we were instructed by the then teacher from Boise that there is to be no written doctrine only verbal. The Christians were the ones to interpret the Bible on a one on one basis and no written book of what the Bible means was to ever be made. On the subject of taking a human life I respectfully disagree that there is a difference between killing and murder; they are the same thing. I have worked with many men who have taken a human life, some in the military during war, and… Read more »
Anon 4:39, I did not say that a morally justified killing has no negative effect on the soul or the psyche. Of course it does…anyone made in the image of a loving God will be scarred at having to take another human's life, even if morally justified. A lot of things that are morally justified leave emotional scars. A divorce for adultery, while justified (though not always necessary) will leave a lifetime of emotional scars on all involved: husband, wife, children, in-laws. That doesn't mean it's never morally justified. Note that this is a different question from the war question.… Read more »
Here is an excellent analysis of the commandment do not murder.
Anonymous at 4:39pm; I was a member of the Stanton churches of Christ for over 30 years. By scripture we were taught that God protects the righteous both in the old testament and the new. Your letter is such great evidence to validate how right those who had taught me were. Christians do not raise up to dispatch a soul into hell. Our only God given right is to teach him so he might be able to go to heaven.
Anon 10:46, can you elaborate? I'm not following your train of thought.
That video you linked there is a good explanation and if those who have been taught just one viewpoint are willing to look at it they might learn something new. But here's my limited experience. My husband is retired military. He never had to kill anyone. He's also never murdered anyone. We get great benefits from his service. However, he was raised in a family that holds military service high and honorably. His grandfather flew in WW2 and his plane was downed. Thankfully he was rescued by good guys. He never went crazy. He retired and became a fire chief… Read more »
You are free to do you see fit I am not binding my conscience on other, but I am enjoying being able to reason out the meaning of scriptures with other believers; except one who is trying to bully us into silence just like the church did to her.
The problem here is that I haven't seen any reasoning of scriptures other than the explanation that the bible clearly means Do not MURDER. Please, feel free to reason from scripture. Right now all I've read is that so many were taught one way. But taught from scripture or taught by opinion/ inference/ judgement? God clearly told us not to bind consciences. I neither claimed it was wrong for a person to join or not. Simply that it's a choice left to conscience. In the case of the Roman soldier Cornelius: he was noted as an HONORABLE man among all… Read more »
I reason it from these scriptures: Mathew 11:12-13 that the kingdom of God (being the nation of Israel in context) suffered violence from the prophets until John; meaning violence in the Hebrew and later Jewish nation was not only allowed but commanded by God. From the time of John the baptist forward violence in all forms was prohibited in the kingdom of God (in context Christianity). The old testament was carnal with the requirement to go to war and kill various nations around Israel such as the Philistines but the new testament was spiritual and violence in any form; not… Read more »
Wow, that kind of reads like a Merie Weiss letter in its reasoning. A lot of the scriptures you cited are not relevant to the discussion of whether someone can join the military or not. (You are addressing that, correct?) The one scripture that I will address is Luke 3. If you read the verses above your citation, you can see that John was teaching others to treat others FAIRLY. He didn't tell the tax collector to quit his job, he told him to only collect what was owed. He told the soldiers the same (don't intimidate), and he even… Read more »
I will write in more detail on this Anon, but you keep conflating murder and killing. Insisting they are the same doesn't make it so. They are different words in English, Greek, and Hebrew. You can't just ignore that. You say that my willingness to defend my family against a murderer or rapist by use of force is premeditation, but thankfully there is an actual legal definition for premeditation, and deciding in advance that I will defend innocent life is not even close to premeditated murder…morally, gramatically, or legally. This goes back to a very common Stanton abuse of language,… Read more »
Seeking, you're exactly right on the "do violence to no man" meaning. The word violence wouldn't even have made sense in that conversation, since the job of a soldier includes carrying a weapon and being willing to use it. He clearly means unjust abuse of power, which is how literally every translation properly renders is. It is not commonly known that Merie taught that the ASV was good in addition to the KJV. Here's how it renders it: Luke 3:14 – And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from… Read more »
Jo 9:36 yes they do have normal sermons, sing songs and prayer that is fitting. You may get reproved or rebuked in a sermon but withdrawals are not part of the worship. Gossip and slander could be part of a sermon though. No food or drink in the sanctuary. Which is not uncommon in other churches. Water is allowed in other places in the building such as restroom or kitchen if the building has one. Sermons can become long and boring for sure as well as redundant. I believe some preachers think the long sermons are something. What is funny… Read more »
Another point with disagreeing as scoc are known for disagreeing with all but themselves. For example they would make stands for such as attending a funeral or wedding in another religious organization building that teaches differently than they which would be everyone else. So they make their stand because we disagree with these others. So I'd like to conclude that I'm as others are simply making a stand against scoc teachings and practices.
I am so glad to hear this Craig and see it posted for all to see. Perhaps they do not want any other to see what a real church is like. I have attended Catholic funerals and weddings and that does not mean I was joining that religion it just meant I had an aunt and uncle that belonged to the Catholic Church for example.
Yesterdays lesson was so good! How does one deal with the desires that arise in the mind? The commandments are for our good and produce virtue when followed but still the heart can desire unlawful things. A person can understand the law and all the consequences of breaking God's law but still have a love for sin once enjoyed before baptism. The solution is when the desire arises is to resist the unlawful desire. The more frequently one resists an unlawful desire the weaker it gets until it stops appearing altogether. Resist unlawful desires when they appear.
I had an interesting conversation with my uncle, who is an evangelical. At some point, he told me that a friend of his told him that there is a man near the Catholic church, near the corner by his home, who yells about Catholics going to hell for praying to the Virgin Mary. That he's been doing that for months. The man wanted my uncle's opinion on the situation.My uncle told him that one should respect Mary, Christ's mother, because she was chosen by God to be Jesus' mother. She is to be held as a special person because God… Read more »