Someone told me a few years ago that there’s an expression in the SCOC that “dead churches” are just taping dead fruit to the tree, or taping fruit to a dead tree. I’m not sure now which expression they use, but I really like the latter. It’s the equivalent of saying someone is just photoshopping their results, or astroturfing them. It’s a very colorful phrase that is packed with a lot of meaning. Ironically, though, taping fruit to a dead tree is precisely what Stanton does.
In fact, it’s the only thing a legalistic church, Stanton or otherwise, can do. There is no better metaphor for legalism (law-keeping as a means to justification before God) than taping fruit to a dead tree. Our human will to be good can never bring us to perfection. We will always fail in our efforts in some way or other, which means our only recourse to look and feel righteous will be to fake it.
You can never be real, or vulnerable, or truly confess your deepest flaws to your brother under legalism. There’s too much status or power at stake. So it’s just easier to tape some fruit on the dead or dying tree to maintain appearances.
But if we replace the brute force of our human will with a heart-changing relationship with the God of love who created us, then we tap into a strength that is greater than anything we can muster on our own. Fully forgiven, we are freed to live a life of service purely out of thankfulness for our debt that God by his grace (undeserved favor) cancelled for us.
We will still fail from time to time. But those failures will get fewer and fewer, and the strength of the tree (and the sweetness of the fruit) will still be an incredible blessing to those around us.
You see, fruit is simply a metaphor for visible results. Fruit is the publicly seen consequence of a life lived well, on one hand, or poorly, on the other. This is why Jesus often used this metaphor with the Pharisees—that you can know the quality of the tree by the fruit it produces.
Of course, this is just a generalism. It’s not true in every example of life. Sometimes we have things happen to us that are not at all related to our life choices (like Job, for example). But the metaphor is still a valuable one.
My wife and I talk a lot in foster parenting circles about using natural consequences as learning opportunities for kids and teens rather than “punishments.” Punishment for breaking the law is the language of legalism. It’s also the language of justice, and you might think, what’s wrong with justice?
Well, I’m all for law and justice in our human forms of government. But we tend to want justice for others, and not ourselves. If justice is what we really want before a perfect God, we’ll be condemned every time. As Matt Thiessen wrote:
And this life sentence that I’m serving
I admit that I’m every bit deserving
But the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair
Natural consequences, however, are simply what happens when you make choices. Isn’t that like bearing fruit—whether good or bad? In my home, if a child sneaks candy at lunch, they’re not getting dessert with the rest of the family that night. Or if they break trust on a connected device like a phone or laptop, guess what? They lose that privilege for awhile (maybe permanently!).
Controlling behavior through punishment can work for a time, but what that child, teen, or adult really learns is how not to get caught. Law and punishment only photoshop the fix. It’s only a temporary one until the photoshopping is discovered. Then you have to start the process of punishment and measurement of behavior all over again.
Isn’t it far more permanent and meaningful to correct visible behavior (fruit) by reforming the thought process itself? After all, it’s the heart that eventually determines our behavior, right? We should seek to treat the disease, not the symptom.
When you look at it this way, “fruit” is simply the natural consequences of our internal thinking and decision-making process. When that process is driven by a good heart, the fruit will generally come out looking good. But trying to make sure the fruit looks really good—i.e., all the behaviors are “correct”—without addressing the heart; now that’s the essence of legalism.
Obeying God should be the natural result of loving Him. Obedience is what should naturally proceed from a heart that is aligned with God. But measuring righteousness by outward appearance is the natural outcome of legalism.
If law-keeping is your primary concern, the heart you have while doing something matters far less than the appearance of having done it (remember Stanton’s “appearance of evil” fetish?). In fact, in this world view, the heart while sinning matters less than the fact of having sinned. As strange as this may sound to legalistically trained ears, that’s not Biblical. Go and sin no more, Jesus said.
We need to face the reality that the grace of God is an infinitely more powerful motivator to do good than the fear of eternal punishment. If all you’re doing is trying to avoid punishment, let me just suggest to you that your religion is probably in vain…although I’ll gladly let God be the judge of that. But if you’re serving the world around you in love because you’ve recognized how loved you are by God; that’s a force that can’t be stopped, even by the most brutal tormenter in a communist prison cell.
Outward law-keeping as the metric of righteousness means that human oppressors (read “Pharisees”) can outwardly measure your performance. You either follow the law visibly, get sidelined for not making your adherence more visible, or get caught outright breaking the law when you dissent from their judgments. You’re then sent up to the Sanhedrin for your punishment. To put it more bluntly, you either follow the May Meeting’s “teaching for doctrines, the commandments of men,” or you get withdrawn from.
The Pharisees attempted to make those outward determinations of performance by enforcing all the rules they heaped upon their followers. Stanton makes a valiant attempt at doing the same thing.
But take heart. Turning your heart over to God, from the inside out, is a far more powerful life-changer than just going to church in an attempt to turn your behavior over to the Lord. And it has the added benefit that it simply cannot be measured by any human.
1 Samuel 16:7 – … For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.
Related articles:
- Turning the tables on legalism
The Merie Weiss cult has a history of violence against children. Merciless beatings for the slightest infraction, like not sitting still during class or worship as one example. Can you imagine if we were beaten every time we did something wrong? I pray this has changed.God will not hold them guiltless when they are judged, unless they repent.The damage this cult has done to its children such as tying them up at night to prevent masturbation, withdrawing from little kids, shaming kids in front of others for the most minor of things, telling them they are going to hell or… Read more »
Kevin and Anon@ 3:13am, all I can say is thanks for showing what you both have learned from God and experience. It truly is refreshing to not only read what Stanton does wrong, but more importantly,read about the path to doing it right. May God bless you and everyone that contributes in healthy instructive ways. This blog Kevin is a God send. It has helped me validate my questions about the group in a way that has been reassuring. Before I discovered this blog, I used to think I was the only one that had trouble reconciling what I read… Read more »
Raised in Stanton: I’m happy for you that you have ‘seen the light’! I encourage you to pursue God and grow a relationship with Him. Grace and the law of Love is very different than what we knew in Stanton. I’m in a Bible study using a book “Not A Fan.”, it addresses LEGALISM in a very easy way to follow. I,too, have family still in the cult but they also see the value of this book. Be an example of one who follows God- not rules, and your family will not be able to deny what they see with… Read more »
I’ve read the book “Not a Fan,” and it’s awesome. I think it’s written more to casual “Christians” who don’t take their faith seriously—what we might call the “Sunday latte” church goers. But there’s some great stuff in there on legalism as well, and I highly recommend it.
Here’s a link:
https://www.amazon.com/Not-Fan-Updated-Expanded-Completely/dp/0310344700/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2WHMC7066GU0&keywords=not+a+fan&qid=1555520629&s=gateway&sprefix=not+a+fan%2Caps%2C199&sr=8-1
I also do a lot of audio books, and if you want to listen to it instead of read it, here’s a link for that:
https://www.audible.com/pd/Not-a-Fan-Audiobook/B005EMIPXI?qid=1555522678&sr=1-1&ref=a_search_c3_lProduct_1_1&pf_rd_p=e81b7c27-6880-467a-b5a7-13cef5d729fe&pf_rd_r=J8K76FKGK4MYSW8K0WV9
Raised in Stanton – I apologize that I missed your comment earlier, but thank you so much for your words of encouragement. It means everything to me. Please stay involved in the blog!
God bless!
The main teacher that was in the actual "Stanton Congregation"in late 80s and 90s, who by the way is the main woman teacher that all the women and men in all the congregations get their marching orders from to this day, never went out of her way to say hi to me or other children at church but would twist back in forth in her chair and rail in class for whole class periods to parents about things she would hear kids were or weren't doing. She had no desire to get to know children and didn't even seem to… Read more »
I have a very strained relationship with my mother as well. There is no reasoning with her. But I brought up to her once how can everyone on this blog be lying when most of us are strangers but like you said Raised In Stanton we all share similar stories and experiences & are all in different places geographically. The one common ground is the cult who is the problem. We are all simply survivors. I still pray every day she wakes up and can take her blinders off so she can find God's grace.
AnonymousMarch 22, 2019 at 3:13 AM Please accept my condolences on the passing of your brother. It is wonderful that he was able to show mercy and get obedience. Some children respond to love, some to fear. The same is true of adults. While I was disciplined by my parents, I was only spanked twice by those in Stanton not my parents, once justly and fairly, and the other severely and cruelly. I had wonderful experiences with most of the Christians in Stanton. That said, I was quiet, mostly respectful, listened a lot, and didn't get into fights a lot.… Read more »
And to be clear, I believe spanking, when done in love and proceeding from genuine relationship, to be perfectly Biblical, and sometimes even effective. I will say that as the father of four bio and three adopted kids (going on four), spanking is only for younger ages, and sometimes completely ineffective. Some personalities just don't respond to it, and you have to find other ways to modify behavior. It's always better to look for other ways, in fact. But I'm not going to condemn a loving parent who spanks their child on the rear for trying to cross a street… Read more »
Montesquieu 11:05 – Never heard of children being tied up to prevent masturbation or children being withdrawn from? Well the reason you never heard of children being tied up was because it, for the most part, ended right before you were born; tapes were destroyed and the subject was hush-hush because it was so evil. New converts were told 'We don't do that anymore so don't criticize us for our past.' The withdrawal of children was not a formal church decision but rather a decision of the teacher to seclude a child deemed to be unclean or of bad influence,… Read more »
There was a list that was made up and given to Merie of what was being taught while she was in the hospital. There was another female teacher who was with Merie a lot who was teaching these things. One of the things on the list was tying children hands to the beds in a spread eagle style. The whole list was horrible and Merie even stated that if the police ever got a hold of that list that they would be in deep trouble.
I’ve never heard that story. But yes, that’s very true.
I am not so sure that Merie was absolutely against the practice of tying children’s hands at night; maybe she just didn’t want such things printed on a list. Lynn, I know you have listened extensively to Merie’s tapes. What did she say of the practice of hand tying specifically? I know HC was withdrawn from back then, but I don’t remember all of the circumstances. HC came back to the church some years back but I’m not sure if she is currently attending in or not.
Yeah, it was HC that taught this as well as other things on the list. It was put together because people tried to get to Merie, while she was in the hospital, yet HC kept them out of there and became the self appointed, “voice of Merie”, but Merie did not advocate that HC was teaching. They put the list together to let her know what HC was teaching in her absence and Merie was not happy. By her reactions it didn’t seem as she supported that teaching.
Lynn, let’s not discount what the comments thaw was made that Merie was in the room of one as they were being tied up to the bedposts. According to the one Merie was instructing the father of the child to tie his wrists tighter. Also that father was best friends with GP according to the one making the comment.
Craig, didn’t know that. Just the one discussion of the teacher who taught this and the reading of the list.
Wow! This is all giving me a headache and a serious one! I can’t imagine in my wildest dreams raising your children like some of the comments mentioned above. It is child abuse. No wonder we have so many adults who become problems in our society. I made many mistakes raising my sons but thankfully none of those mistakes came from a dysfunctional church/cult. I was a young married mother who moved away from her family support when my husband got transferred. In hindsight we would have done things differently but I have repented and asked God for forgiveness for… Read more »
Jo, they had children so scared that the male children would stand to urinate with their hands in their air deathly afraid to touch it to help urinate. If I remember right, they were taught to make their children sleep with mittens on.
That is one talk I was not able to copy before I left. The one that is one this very subject.
God bless you, Jo. What you've described is the human experience. We all start out inexperienced, and learn and grow as we get older. There can be no other way.
I'm happy you found a healthy church and church family.
I'm currently a member in "good standing" in the church. I read the blog, even though its frowned upon. I can't begin to tell you how closely the comments and personal testimonies align and match what's happening in the church. You read something here, and it opens your eyes to that behavior now. so that when you see it happening, you instantly think about who it happened to here on this blog, and you know the damage it causing. I always wonder why the "older ones" don't address at least some of the accusations here. If you have the answer… Read more »
Thanks for sharing. And God bless you for being brave.
God is working!!! This blog is working!!
I too am a current member in 'good standing' in the church. I read the blog and I know of two other current members who also read it. I am sure you're wondering why in the world I would still be attending after reading all of this. Honestly, I am weak and just don't have the courage to leave because of family members who are still involved. Because of the threat of withdrawal for murmuring it's impossible to ask others what they think of the blog posts and videos. I am sure I will leave someday, I'm just not quite… Read more »
I pray you find the courage to leave and build your life outside of this cult. I personally know how hard it is to leave a church after 20 years because of remarriage in my case and went to my husbands church with same teachings only a much larger church. It took me about two years to finally feel comfortable but in my case both churches are healthy and not a Cult. I cannot imagine belonging to this oppressive cult all those years even though my own son and family have been involved for 20 plus years right before my… Read more »
Anon 9:32 – Thank you so much for sharing. It's so encouraging just to know that people's eyes are opening both in and out of Stanton's immediate membership.
I sometimes get an email a day from people saying something similar, and it vindicates the real mission of this blog. It's not here to tear anything down, but to open eyes and build people up in Christ so that they don't fear the oppression of man anymore.
God bless.
Anon 10:31 – I totally understand. I do think you'll become much stronger out of the sect than in it, but I am not going to try to tell you what's right for your situation. It may very well be that your presence within is being intentionally used by God to build relationships with more people who can be converted to true Christianity in time.
Keep studying and learning, and feel free to reach out anytime using the contact info on the blog. I keep all communications private unless people specifically say I don't need to.
God bless!
AnonymousMarch 22, 2019 at 9:32 AM AnonymousMarch 22, 2019 at 10:31 AM Good to hear from you both. I'm excommunicated, and I still attend at times. My name is probably mud in both of your churches, as the Stanton propaganda machine is quite efficient. Agree with AnonymousMarch 22, 2019 at 9:43 AM &AnonymousMarch 22, 2019 at 9:47 AM. It's quite emotionally and psychologically traumatic to leave. It nearly destroyed me. But, ultimately our own choices alone decide our destinies, and a quiet conscience sleeps in thunder. There are many on this blog who don't look at Stanton as a cult,… Read more »
Montesquieu – You said "There are many on this blog who don't look at Stanton as a cult, we simply understand there are a few misguided leaders, and an entire group of very good people." I don't necessarily disagree with that. A church can meet all the objective or subjective qualifications of being a cult, and still have good people in it. As has been mentioned before, it's possible that there are truly regenerated believers within its ranks who are still growing, and building up the courage to speak out or leave. It's not the purpose of this blog to… Read more »
@ Anons March 22, 2019 at 9:32 AM and 10:31 AM, I too can confirm that there are members who notice and understand some of these things, and they don't even read the blog. I talked to some current members who are starting to "get it" just based on their own experiences as well. They mention how they regret how they raised their kids and how they wish they treated them better and wasn't "law law law" all the time after seeing the results themselves now that the children are grown. They mention how they wish they weren't so harsh… Read more »
Wanted to add a quick point to the above about the children. I have a few close relationships with some of the children of the members, and most of them would let me know they couldn't wait to leave the SCOC. Some of them feel trapped, mistreated, and feel that their voices aren't heard because their parents see them as "just children", as if they don't understand the things they see or hear or feel is wrong. They feel as if they can't trust their parents with anything and have no one to turn to about things that bother them.… Read more »
AFP – Thanks for your insight. I believe personal relationships, like you've taken the time to build with kids of members, are the best chance we have of influencing those still in the sect.
I see this blog as simply a way to encourage more intentionality in those personal relationships.
Woman At the Head: KS is in the Carolinas now.
But in accord with righteous judgment and in light of the post from Woman At The Head I felt it necessary to point out a fact in KS favor. When a member of the Stanton church died, KS and her husband adopted her 10 children and agreed to live in their home to continue raising them. They all love her and a good percentage of them have become Christians. I believe this a good testimony to how KS feels about children.
Concerned, That is very true. She did lay her life down for the children, and raised them as her own. That definitely must be added to the entire view. Personally, I was always very fond of KS, she was a remarkable example. However, when I looked at the fruit of Stanton, as far as people added, and men being sent out to preach, it was only then that my blind spot became clearer. When I personally visited her home, she was cheerful, charming, had a very clean and immaculate home, her children were wonderful to be around, and I will… Read more »
Concerned,
Because someone does something admirable…does it mean others interactions and eyewitnesses accounts are incorrect? I never said she treated her children or the family she helped poorly. I actually agree with you.She treated the congregations kids with a dismissive attitude and lack of care.However, please refute what I actually stated that you have an issue with, Concerned.
Thanks for the update about her move. I can't speak to her personal life because she was very secretive and people tend to only show what they want. But, without a doubt, her public or church life was filled with emasculating men at every turn. She consistently gave seated boisterous sermons ranting and ravings at every class. If you were there Concerned, please give your version.
KS is in Spartanburg, SC a satellite congregation of Greenville, SC as is Anderson, SC. KS was conveniently located around much of her family. Awesome what she did with the children. That is the highlight of the cult. Something that happens everyday outside of the cult. Maybe not a family of 10 children. I also read a comment from someone who said family wanted to take the children in. Sad they didn’t get that opportunity.
I don't have anything personal against KS, only doctrinal. I have heard others tell of her involvement in her husband's withdrawal, and that was just awful and inappropriate. But I grew up with the W kids in elementary school, junior high, and high school. Their mom J was a sweet, sweet lady. When KS took over that family, it was exactly what those kids needed from an adoptive mom (at least from the outside looking in…you'll have to ask them what home life was like). As a foster and adoptive dad myself, it's hard to critique someone who takes on… Read more »
They don’t want to see it. In the meeting I had with all the leaders in Tacoma with TC the problems were laid out again and all were dismissed. No matter how much proof was given it seemed that it was more important to protect the leaders who have more status than the victim. Even with some of the things I had said it was told to me that if what I said were true then one of the older members would have figured it out already. Could you imagine any of them standing before everybody and claiming that they… Read more »
Lynn, have you spoken to anyone from the Tacoma congregation since BS was withdrawn from for oppression?
Yes, I have and she was the one who told me that BS had been oppressing her for years. We ran into each other a few months ago.
Lynn, I was at a May meeting and one who know longer is in Tacoma told MM and I that they were “thrilled” maybe not that exact word if not similar to be out of Tacoma.
WOW. It was said that the lack of love was there for a long time. RL was sent to Tacoma from Portland to deal with it and still had the problem. CS was sent from the south (preacher from the south) and it got even worse. One of his son’s wife missed some time when she was pregnant and he brought it out from the pulpit that nobody called her to see how she was doing. It was taught that when you are out for any type of infirmity that it isn’t up to the congregation to check to see… Read more »
Montesquieu, a high majority of Merie’s cult members are wonderful people. It’s not the members being the reason I call them a cult. Rather the unscriptural ways of the group. The blog has highlighted many ways they qualify as a cult. Even things you’ve shared qualifies Merie’s group as a cult.
Anon 9:32 and 10:31 I was amazed what I’ve been learning away from Merie’s cult. My eyes have been opened and I can see clearly. You both take care.
If anyone accuses this blog of intending to start a revolution and "topple" Stanton, the comments here should prove otherwise. The only revolution I seek to start is in the hearts of readers.
Thank you all for reading, commenting, and sharing the blog. It's impact is far beyond anything I could have, or wanted to, engineer.
God bless.
Once the comment count on article get beyond 100 or 200, Blogger just bails on it for some reason. I can't seem to click into most comment threads from the feed anymore, unless it's a post with fewer comments on it. If you're having this trouble as well, please comment on a more recent post. There are several I've tried to read, but can't find the comment to reply. All the more motivation for me to upgrade this site to a better platform. Apparently, Blogger isn't made to handle 8,000+ comments and counting. Thanks for everyone's encouragement. I have some… Read more »
Kevin, I have trouble finding comments as well. There are times when I want to quote someone's comment to make a point but forget which page it's on. I noticed you moved the search function but it's still complicated at times. Also thanks for this article, you've accurately explained what I was trying to convey with my "fruit" comments (seems we came to the exact same conclusions about wine as well). There's limited comment space and I try to keep all my points in one or two posts so as not to bury all the other comments. I plan on… Read more »
Concerned 3:20 you can show an entirely different affection for your own children and grandchildren being that natural affection that you’d hope a parent and grandparent would have. Other children you may not show no affection to which is sad. I purposed to show the same affection to the children equally. I saw in Portland where one of the Merie worshippers would only babysit and hold her own grandchildren. She was not very friendly with other children. Not that she was mean or anything like that. So the point made about KS being the great mother to her own and… Read more »
This is the issue with women, and why God put the man in charge. They are fiercely territorial, as God created them, so they would be able to care for their children and home. When they run churches, preferring, cliques, and networks run rampant, which was all over Stanton. Men are far more capable of having oversight over what is good for their family, and other families. When it comes to women, the needs of their own family often blind them to what is just and good for others. Which is fine, that's why God created a man to give… Read more »
Amen, Unknown.
I have to refer to scripture for what you said, I believe. Especially when someone is very busy with not only the ten she adopted but the five of her own she is also dealing with. Hay, just to be clear I know the problem with Stanton churches is it is women heavy and are transgressing scriptures. No elders/deacons is also destroying the pillar of truth. But back to the point. Scriptures point out we know someone by their fruits and that is the best we can do in judgment. Not by the seeing of the eyes nor the hearing… Read more »
So….Just to be clear, you believe KS is judging righteously?I would like to keep it simple. Tearing down other families and emasculating men in front of there husbands is not good fruit.I'm sure alot of bad leaders treated their families very different from those they oppressed. Doing wrong and holding sins over members heads doesn't give you a pass because of other good things you have done. Would you agree, if you rule and critisize your brothren with an iron fist, should not you be evaluated on A higher level? Which leads to the bigger problem with your argument. Stanton… Read more »
Concerned – KS's "fruits" with regard to taking on a whole family for life are something I respect deeply as a foster and adoptive parent myself. Caring for the fatherless is "pure and undefiled religion" according to James. Does that compensate for Stanton's repeated abuses of scripture and of people? That's above my pay grade and beyond the purpose of this blog. I'm not interested in judging her harshly when there's a far more just judge she who knows the thoughts and intents of her heart, and whom she must stand or fall before. I'll call balls and strikes as… Read more »
From what I know, KS has been much more permissive with those she raised and less kind to others. Certain members of her family can have family reunions and stay over weekends at the congregation where they are having it is one example of how they don't have to jump hoops like others in Stanton. She has her favorites including those she raised, (and several were adults so she didn't actually raise them all). I'm not jealous of them and am glad they have this freedom, I really am. The problem is that KS thinks everyone else has to have… Read more »
That's true. When I decided, due to a number of personal reasons, that I wanted to move from Washington State after getting out of the Navy, back to Vallejo to be around my family, I was shocked to learn I had to get permission from teachers. I was told I had to talk with KS. Amazing I'm only figuring this out now. Well, if I had been denied the ability to move back with my family, I would have rioted right then and there, and I'm pretty sure KS sensed that in our conversation. I was not a little excited… Read more »
Montesqueiu – Your frustration would have been just as valid if you were forced to "grovel" before GP, a male. I'm not defending Stanton's female-led power structure at all. I do think it's unscriptural to the core. I'm just saying you're just as wrong at the other extreme in disrespecting women as a broad sweeping rule.
Deborah would be a biblical counterpoint. Margaret Thatcher would be a political one.
None in the New Testament, and Thatcher preceded the mess in England today. Theresa May is a complete joke, as she can't even get Brexit done. She will probably be resigning soon. Victoria was a capable ruler, as was Elizabeth, but when you look at the totality of history, it definitely favors male centric societies. Look at Islam. While it's brutal treatment of woman is horrific, by any objective analysis, this rotten ideology keeps careering on, and it is highly enabled by the fact that it, brutal treatment of women aside, has the roles of the sexes clear. Islamic men… Read more »
Does anyone know the reason for KS's husband's withdrawal??
He was reinstated many years ago so his withdrawal is a non factor.
He was reinstated to the status of non-member years ago because he declared his baptism was not good while he was in the state of withdrawl. His withdrawal was lifted and he then chose to not be baptized and for years lived as a nonmember, even when he and KS were raising the Ws. Forward many years and he is coming to church again and considered a member but he hasn’t made his confessions which leads me to believe he decided his baptism was good after all. This is going off of information less than a year old but he… Read more »
Craig, have you thought about asking for a meeting with MM and others to formally state you are a nonmember? Ks husband got out of withdrawal doing that. He was not attending when he had his withdrawal lifted. Did you ever receive an explanation as to why you were suddenly a member?
The only down side of doing this, though, is that it feeds into their self-deception that they are the holy, just, and wise ones that everyone has to come to for their “judgments.” They love to “sit in the gates” and have everyone come to them for “counsel.” John and Tracy came under suspicion as teachers simply because they didn’t ask enough counsel from leadership. But all those judgments are just a bunch of human opinions, exactly like the Pharisees in Jesus’ day. I personally think we ought to give their “rulings” the exact same weight that God does—which is… Read more »
I’m thinking in this case the response to Craig’s request for a meeting will most likely become public knowledge on this blog; even a refusal to meet with him says a lot. The more the actions of individual teachers, preachers and counselors are made public the better. It would be nice if a member in good standing could ask MM himself how the reversal of Craig’s ‘non-memberhood’ came to be, who were the ‘counselors’ involved and what were the reason’s given; but alas, we are taught not to question judgments, especially those made in other congregations, plus questioning the judgement… Read more »
A Commenter in the Know, I had asked MM for who and the number of who made the decision to remake me a member Lol. I received no reply. I asked my wife and any questions she refers me to him. Though she did tell me I should’ve stopped visiting their worships. Once I began sharing with my wife something’s about the history of Merie’s cult and I was attending as a visitor at times smh in disapproval as MM preached. The next thing you know May week and the reversal. No worries here as I do not honor the… Read more »
A commenter in the know, when MM told me that the decision about my baptism almost 5 months prior was wrong just days after the 2017 May meeting and they would begin to serve me the Lords Supper if I attended and that my baptism would be brought up before the congregation. I simply told him nothing has changed. Voice mails and text messaging to get an explanation went no where. I have no desire to meet with MM to discuss the matter. He is a liar. A known liar to some I’ve spoken too. The top three I would… Read more »
And I remember when that happened. It was totally a setup to withdraw from you. The second you told me they were going to serve you the Lord’s supper, it was obvious what their game was.
Kevin, I agree it was. I’d loved to of heard what they discussed at that May week concerning me attending as a nonmember and reading, commenting and discussing some of their unscriptural ways with my wife. They have instituted plenty of unscriptural withdrawals what’s one more to add to their list. They continue to validate the cult that they are.
Anon @ 3:38…These are my
opservations as well. One standard if you kissed up to her, and another if you went to someone else for counsel.
She would overrule other "leaders" in other congregations if you were on her bad side. I can understand why some people would have a different opinion of her but its really because she didn't see you as a threat.
Like Kevin said, Tracy's story tells you all you need to know about how K.S runs the cult. She was nice to Tracy until they dissagreed with her judgements openly.
*observations
Yes…K.S husband was withdrawn from for a -corrupt Mind-. Just this tells you all you need to know about the group on so many levels…one question…at what point after you analyzed someones thoughts does it reaches the level of a withdrawalble offense?
I would have left too! And then came back in at an advanced age and said my baptism was no good as well. What a joke
He was reinstated to the status of non-member years ago because he declared his baptism was not good while he was in the state of withdrawl. His withdrawal was lifted and he then chose to not be baptized and for years lived as a nonmember, even when he and KS were raising the Ws. Forward many years and he is coming to church again and considered a member but he hasn’t made his confessions which leads me to believe he decided his baptism was good after all. This is going off of information less than a year old but he… Read more »
I'm curious, what constituted a corrupt mind? Based on how Stanton operated, I'm convinced many a married man would have been made a Eunuch with their rules. I know others in Stanton withdrawn from for defiled marriage beds and corrupt minds. As a child I learned never to tell them anything about oneself, was a very good rule to operate by. However, was then lulled to sleep on how counsel is the way of the righteous. So I got counsel, and against my better counsel, my own common sense, was soon counseled into withdrawal and excommunication. Amazing how my childlike… Read more »
Correction, rather than use the word Coitus, coupling seems more appropriate and fitting.
And yet you did Montesquieu.
Yes, and yet, I corrected it. As a mistake does not become an error until one refuses to correct it. As I was concerned about veracity, CONCERNED, perhaps you will understand.
Well, THAT explains it! Here we are talking about how KS EMASCULATES men from her teaching position, but she did this to her husband FIRST, and she had to have reported it because she HATED something he was doing related to "coupling". Is it any wonder that, after being offended either in the bed or by his looking at other women–or something in this area that she took VERY personally– that she is SO ANGRY AT MEN???
I can't understand for the life of me how one thinks they have the right to tell a married couple how to have sex or discuss their sex life!??!! So mind blown over this!! I can't understand either how any member or a married couple would think this is anywhere close to being okay?! That in itself would raise so many red flags about this organization! It's crossing a line on so many levels & does not dictate whether you're going to heaven or hell! I automatically think they are perverts to meddle in a married couples sex life or… Read more »
Anon 6:59 – You obviously haven't been around sect teachings very long. 🙂
Kevin no & thank God for that! Long enough to know it was not right. I heard gossiping about the talks to married people. Just never understood why they think it's okay. The brainwashing is real!
Anon 6:59. I totally agree with you and your comment and sounds
Anon 6:59 just like something I would have written as I have the same thoughts. I also understand if not wrong they decide who is and is not marriage material. Some of the singles are not worthy of marriage and some of the male singles will never marry. Am I saying this right Kevin? It does all sound insane.
WOW Jo that is even more disturbing!! No wonder so many deal with depression or struggle with self worth! How incredibly sad!!
Jo, I think some teachers have tried to exercise that level of control in the past (deciding who has permission to marry and who doesn't, who can be in courting relationship and who can't, where the married couple will eventually live and go to church, etc.). I have no knowledge of whether these things are still the norm.
Jo,as I remember it if there was masturbation, porn, or any perverseness they were counciled to clean house first. Also Matt.5ch and Matt 19 is taken very seriously in the Stanton Churches of Christ. If a divorce was involved the other marriage had to include adultry as a reason for the divorce. I see nothing wrong with a church teaching what the bible teaches and warning future spouses from getting involved with someone who has serious problems.
JoMarch 27, 2019 at 9:15 AM You are right, Jo. If the teachers don't think you are ready to marry, and don't give you their blessing, you will die single. It's all designed to get you to flatter and be a sycophant to the teachers. If they don't like you, there isn't a snowballs chance in h*ll you are getting married in Stanton. They say it's better to be 'safe than sorry'. In Stanton, it doesn't matter if you like someone, and want to get married. Your opinion of marriage and a spouse does not matter. The teachers decide who… Read more »
CONCERNEDMarch 27, 2019 at 10:45 AM You are right about that. However, what about the people in the world who married full of these issues and worked through them? Doesn't the Bible say if a person cannot contain (i.e. masturbation, porn) that marriage is the remedy? Doesn't 1 Corinthians 6 say to avoid fornication, and 1 Corinthians 7 go on to say the remedy is marriage? Besides, let's be honest, if it weren't for sex, men wouldn't want to get married and have children at all. The human race would have died out long ago. This may offend women, but… Read more »
Kevin. I can speak for Portland. Young members have left the cult because of the tight reign preacher MM has on singles dating and getting married. It all goes through him rather or not you are worthy.
Believe it or not K.S had the preacher H.W call around to preaching men and ask them what they did in their bed chambers. If they answered incorrectly, they were withdrawl worthy for the made up sin of "defilment of the marriage bed". Ironically enough the scripture actually states the opposite "the marriage bed is undefiled". Moreover, the only way it's defiled is by adultery(sex outside of marriage). Heb 13:4 is the scripture they would butcher as grounds for withdrawl. Strangly enough the above referenced scripture alone is clear evidence the cult practices rules and guidelines contrary to scripture. Don't… Read more »
Seeker – Thanks for the more current info. It's amazing they continue to push their human rules, but they seem intent on becoming twofold more the child of hell than the first century Pharisees.
When I was attending, I once accidentally passed by a woman who was breastfeeding before the Sunday service began, and you would have thought WW III had begun, based on the reaction of her husband, who first erupted with anger, then disbelief, then panic, and all the while chastising me. I was new to the building, and took a wrong turn, and had no way of knowing the lady was around a corner that I walked by. But I was treated almost like a murderer!
Jiminy Cricket! Never had that happen to me, but it sounds in character. Overreacting to innocent mistakes is a habit of Stanton as well. Once was tasked with taking two May meeting teachers to the airport in 2005. Didn't have a cell phone with Wifi, and my directions were wrong, so went the wrong way, and the they arrived late. Well, DS had an absolute cow, I can tell you. Thought he was going to turn purple. I profusely apologized, but he was pretty peeved. Not sure if he was angry because this would make him lose standing with the… Read more »
I met DS a few times, and thought he was an utter buffoon and jackass, in addition to always projecting an air of smug superiority, for which there was no visible (or implied) justification. He always seemed to act like an angry little man, and be on the verge of apoplexy. Had I encountered him outside of SCOC, I would've been greatly tempted to knock him out where he stood.
He has a very kind heart. I spent a lot of time around him and his family. He would constantly take the fatherless kids on outings, and would have people over his home. However, very rigid. When I texted him after he shared that he dealt with fears constantly, that perhaps that was because he was unmerciful with others, I was publicly denounced by him at the next May Week, and this was used as grounds, a few months later, to excommunicate me. Imagine that, texting a teacher with a true opinion of the issues they deal with is grounds… Read more »
Apparently, SCOC has had enough of his odd behavior too: he has been relieved of his duties for some time now. It Makes you wonder because he has always been that way.However; I must say, he doesn't just tow the line of SCOC:he speaks his mind.
Monte's post is hard to read in spots. Also, can you for once stop talking about yourself?
Kevin,
These attacks are likely coming from one person who consistently attacks using the same style.
If this is the kind of love that your website represents, I'm having a hard time finding in the Bible you say you follow.
It's the same nonsense every time.
'hard to read', ' can you stop talking about yourself'.
It's like a 13 year old is running loose on the site.
SCOC displays no judgment. You're guilty of the worse offense first, and they all pile on from there.
Anon 5:45 DS has been relieved of his duties for quite some time now?
“Taping on fruit” is an interesting analogy. It is taught over and over through countless classes of the scriptures that teach what the fruits of the spirit are. Through application of the scriptures and making our changes we start to develop the fruits of the spirit, yet what you can see a lot of times is that some of those fruits are faked. How many times have we been at the end of an unwarranted rebuking and/or accusation for the “love of your soul”? I have seen plenty of smiles, hand shakes, hugs, visits, etc. done in the name of… Read more »
I agree with your summation Lynn. Teachers often explain to a babe, who hears a strong rebuke for the first time, that it’s all done in ‘love’; the babe swallows the explanation; gets used to it happening; and tries their best not to be the recipient of such a rebuke, often becoming a ‘teacher pleaser’ in order to stay out of the line of fire. If the babe eventually ends up being a teacher they become a rebuker of the same caliber and the behavior perpetuates.
So much of what Stanton does is simply grooming for an abusive relationship. It’s not at all spiritually minded.
To add to my last comment… Have any current or past members seen a teacher yell at someone for an hour and then act like ‘all is well in churchland’ when class is over; giving handshakes and hugs to the person they just berated for an hour?
yes, plenty.
Where is Montesquieu?
I truly miss his presence on here. I found 99.99% of his dissertations, diatribes, observations, insights, pontifications, thoughts, reasonings, ruminations, and his precision-crafted logic to be edifying, inspiring, enlightening and electrifying.
Perhaps he is occupied with the tasks and endeavors of his own life, and he may soon return from this unanticipated sabbatical. Let us hope such is the case!
Lol. I’m sure he’s here in spirit. I think he’s working on his own site. 🙂