Well, it seems I’ve crossed some sort of tripwire I didn’t know existed between civil discourse and hate speech by using the word “cult” to describe Stanton, and apparently I’m now labeled as vicious, cruel, vindictive, bitter, bloodthirsty, a vigilante, oppressive and tyrannical according to commenter Martin Luther. Wow, tell me how you really feel!
I know, and hopefully you do too, that all these things are untrue, but I’m hopeful that after reading this, you will at least understand my heart a little better. You may not agree, but agreement is not a condition of brotherly love. Remember that?
I have to say I was a bit shocked by this over-the-top denunciation. I consider Martin Luther a friend, although we’ve never met. I know who he is; we’ve talked and corresponded a number of times about the abuses of Stanton, and he’s provided a number of digital files of lessons. I’ve never once wanted this blog to be a blunt instrument of vindictiveness or personal attack, and have always made every attempt to make that clear. So to see my motives impugned like this is a little discomforting–did I come across that way to anyone else, or just Martin Luther? I’d like to know your honest opinion.
But I obviously stepped on a nerve. So come, let us reason together.
Let me first start with an apology for offending you, Martin Luther, and anyone else who was truly offended to the core. It was not my goal to attack anyone or to otherwise be incendiary by use of this term. For me, it was just a natural progression of how I’ve come to view the sect. (Is “sect” a more politically correct term, or do we need to have a “safe space” to avoid this trigger word as well?)
I will more fully explain my use of the term later in this post, but first, let’s rewind and respond to some of Martin Luther’s comments:
“Yet, ironically, the very one’s (sic) claiming on here that Stanton is so oppressive and tyrannical, are the same ones oppressively and tyrannically labelling (sic) them a cult.”
“I respect the opinion of those who admit their own faults, which hurt all of us the most, and then highlight Stanton’s, but I have no respect for the vigilantes who bloodthirstily pursue Stanton no different from how the Jews once pursued Eichmann. The Jews had a reason, you don’t.”
“I do realize hurt people hurt people, so I understand it, but if the intent of this site is to heal and not to rip apart further than (sic) using the word cult is not the way to go. There are no rewards for viciously attacking ones enemies.”
“Of course injustice needs to be addressed, this is indisputable, yet it must be addressed with understanding and not cruel vindictiveness.”
“…let it never be said of me that I attacked people and organizations rather than the ideas that caused the behaviors. To say Stanton is an evil wicked cult is exactly why they won’t converse with many of us. When debating an opponent, using insults, and the word cult is a supreme insult, is guaranteed to lose the debate.”
First and foremost, “enemies?” Really? Can you find anything in my writing that indicates I consider anyone enemies? I love these people. I don’t know most of them very well anymore. Some of them knew me as a child, but personally speaking, I don’t have a relationship with enough of them to be hurt by what they say or think, much less consider them enemies.
Second, and this is extremely important; this has never been a debate. A debate requires a dialogue, and not once has Stanton transparently engaged me or this audience in friendly conversations, much less debate. As Gary so famously said in his Labor Day talk, Not Ready To Give An Answer:
“Someone told me here just recently that ‘Gary, do you realize what’s happening, under cover? People are coming out and expressing what it is that they feel, their disdain and contempt for what you believe. I’ve got to know how to respond.’
And I know how I respond. That’s the basis of this lesson. I refuse. I refuse, to the uttermost of my being to dignify the absurdity of the questions and the challenges in which it is that people will present. What I mean by that is that I will not honor, they are not worthy of my consideration. …
[M]y whole estimation was to not give it a nickel’s worth of consideration. But I want to give you what it is how I deal with things like this. How I respond. Because I don’t. I don’t.
So to say that using the word “cult” will shut down debate isn’t exactly the strongest argument I’ve heard. Yes, I do want to dialogue about the Scriptures with people in Stanton, but attempts at dialogue have literally never worked. The only hope of reaching the people still in the sect is to present truth in love, and hope that something here inspires a little more investigation of God’s Word.
Third. Does use of the word “cult” necessarily indicate that I’m vicious, cruel, vindictive, bitter, bloodthirsty, a vigilante, oppressive and tyrannical? Objectively, I hope it’s apparent to everyone that the answer is negative. Those labels are judgments of what’s going on in someone’s heart. I think it’s important to constantly remind ourselves that we as humans can only judge actions, not motives, because someone’s motivations are matters of the heart. Only God can judge motives.
I can be magnanimous about Stanton, giving them the benefit of the doubt about their intentions and motivations, and still conclude that the word “cult” is appropriate, because that word does not impugn their motives or intentions of the heart. I have to assume they sincerely believe they are following God. But I can at the same time believe them to be in a cult, and I’ll explain that later.
Martin Luther says:
“Has anyone ever met the person who was told they were in a cult in Stanton and they changed their life around and are now happy and blessed by God? Who was persuaded absolutely by being told they are a cult follower?”
This argument is what kept me from using this word for many years. I didn’t believe it would be effective in convincing people, so I stayed away from it, even though I believed it to be true. However, I believe this is a personal decision that everyone has to make about what is going to be the most effective in their relationships with people in the group (here’s another politically correct term I think we can all agree on). So this is an argument about the pragmatism of using the word, not the veracity of it.
Before getting into the accuracy of the term as applied to Stanton, let me first explain my increased use of it. I started off, as I’ve said, avoiding the term. I opted for the word “sect.” This was intentional, because I felt that it would be a turn-off to some people and they wouldn’t listen past that. Perhaps that was the best route, and I’ve erred in straying from that.
But let me add another side of this. My family has been divided by this sect’s authoritarian teachings for nearly ̶4̶8̶ 52 years now. I’ve seen it tear countless marriages apart, spiritually and sometimes physically. I’ve seen it estrange fathers from their children for generations, with new generations raised to think that is OK. I have, during the past 2̶0̶ 31 years, attempted various ways of reaching my family members in the group with a more accurate view of God, the Bible, grace, love, forgiveness; all the things I’ve written about on this blog.
But I have to say, this avoidance of the term “cult” didn’t produced the intended fruit.
My mom remains in her bondage to the unbiblical “counsel” of fallible humans, as do many other subjects of the various teachers in the group. Using the word “cult” was a considered decision, one taken as a result of my strong belief that more and more generations are getting roped into Stanton’s divisive teachings, and that needs to stop.
I’ve used this analogy before: Stanton is throwing people into the river, and I’m tired of simply trying to pull people out downriver. I want to stop them from throwing anyone else into the river, and empower people who might be on the verge of letting themselves be thrown in the river to say “wait a minute, I’m not going to let you do that.” And hence my increased use of the word “cult.”
I believe it is accurate; the only question is if it will be more effective than not using that term. That’s a The jury is out on that one. I’ve spent at least 20 years of trying the one approach. My mom may not have many years left. She’s 83 years old. For me—and maybe it’s just for me, but maybe others are at this point, too—it’s time to try something different. They say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. So this is me trying something different.
Maybe after trying this approach, it will also prove to be ineffective. That’s a very real possibility. I just don’t know. What I do know is that I use the term in good conscience, and with no desire to offend anyone. For me, I’m making a sincere application of this verse:
Jude 22-23 – Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
For you, maybe you’re not there yet. Maybe you don’t see your situation as urgent, needing to pull someone out of the fire. That’s OK. Just try to be patient with me, then, because that’s where my heart is.
So let’s talk about the definition of a cult
Stanton has often cited a dictionary definition of “cult” to say that by this definition, Jesus was in a cult. Martin Luther wrote:
“Cult: a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object. That means everyone who follows Jesus is in a cult. LOL.”
“If Stanton is a cult than (sic) Martin Luther, and Alexander Campbell were cults too, but I don’t suppose you’ve bothered studying them have you?”
Actually, Martin Luther, I have read Campbell extensively, dating back to my teen years, and I’m 48. I own and have read dozens of his books, debates, and periodicals. I’ve read all seven years of his Christian Baptist magazines in an effort to understand the roots of the movement I was raised in and decide for myself what is Biblical and what’s not. I’ve read volumes of that publication’s successor, Millennial Harbinger, as well as books and articles about the movement and about Campbell himself.
I can tell you unequivocally that Stanton bears almost no resemblance to the movement that Alexander Campbell was instrumental in starting.
- Speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where it’s silent? Are you kidding me? Stanton’s the opposite of this, adding layer upon layer of their teaching for doctrines, the commandments of men.
- Campbell’s was a unity movement to unite “the Christians in the sects.” Stanton denies there are even Christians in those sects, outsides its own hyper-sectarian walls.
- Campbell was an advocate for freedom of conscience devoid of bondage to human creeds. Stanton “rabbis” enforce the radical antithesis of freedom of conscience.
But I digress.
Using Martin Luther’s preferred definition of “cult” doesn’t hold up to reason. We agree that neither Jesus nor Alexander Campbell were members of a cult. Therefore, I know we agree that this particular definition of cult is not the one we’re really discussing.
Instead of cherry-picking the most benign definition to argue from, let’s look at Webster’s full definition of cult:
1: formal religious veneration : worship
2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad
b : the object of such devotion
c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
There is a lot of room in these definitions for different types of cults, and different (but accurate) uses of the word. The worship of the ancient pagan gods were cults. They were a system of religious beliefs and rituals, also including an object of devotion (the supposed deity, or the physical idol it represented).
The one that I would use in reference to Stanton is #3, a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious, as well as #5a, a great devotion to a person or idea, and #5c, a small group of people characterized by such devotion.
Could mainstream Christianity, if you stretch the meaning of words, be shoehorned into some of these definitions? Of course. But we all know exactly what we’re talking about. We’re talking about an undue idolization of a group above all other groups. I sincerely believe that Stanton has become the modern equivalent of idolatry for many members.
Martin Luther says:
“The Bible does teach if you don’t obey the church it designed, you are going to hell. What do they [Stanton] have to apologize for?”
And that’s where it becomes idolatry, I would argue. The Bible does not say to obey Stanton. Our obligation is to obey God rather than men. It is never sacrilege to disobey unbiblical doctrines, no matter who teaches them. If the church as a human institution is in authority over our lives, then we must all become Catholics and return to the Mother Church, seeking to reform it.
I’ll choose instead to expend my energies trying to reform my own heart and the hearts of others I may have an ounce of influence on. I don’t really care about the institution of Stanton. I care about the people within its walls who are being enslaved by its ideology; the ideology that in it alone can truth be found. That’s just patently false and destructive to the souls of men every time it’s tried.
One person told me recently that he had a conversation with someone in the group and pointed out a factual string of abuses of the church. The response was absolute horror that he would dare criticize “the church,” as if God might strike him dead for simply pointing out where it’s strayed from the scriptures. That is what I mean when I say the church has become an idol, and is why I am comfortable using the word “cult” in a factual sense. We should never be horrified at the mere thought of questioning with boldness what we’ve been taught. That’s just honest inquiry. It’s what the Bereans did, and it’s what we should be doing.
As for whether Stanton is truly a cult, this of course depends on whether you believe their ideology or not. For those convinced of their anointed status as the only true church, it is understandable that this wouldn’t be acknowledged. “I’m in a cult”…said no cult member ever. It is only with outside perspective that it becomes obvious; when you see the real life effects of families broken up, husbands ditched for loyalty to the teachings of fallible men, and lifelong relationships tossed aside should one dare question the authority of The Church.
There are many good articles on identifying characteristics of cults, as people most commonly use that term. Some identifying marks that I think are fairly useful come from this article:
- All your friends believe just like you do. It is one thing to all have similar world views. That happens in churches, clubs, political parties, etc. But when there is absolutely no room for dissent, this can be a sign your’e in a cult.
- Nobody questions authority. Reasonable people in leadership positions do not exercise totalitarian or authoritarian control over people. When you have a culture that makes everyone fearful of even holding an opinion that might contradict an authority figure, much less voice it, this can be a sign you’re in a cult.
- The source of authority is vested in a person. Most cults have an authority figure who claimed special knowledge or insight from God. This person cannot be criticized without being denounced or reprimanded, because to call into question their authority would call into question the very existence of the group.
- Doctrine must not be questioned. Authority of the leaders (#2 above) is one type of control, and Stanton uses this in binding teachers’ “counsel” on members. But this extends to doctrine as well. The teachings that come out of May Week are held to be authoritative (at least until next year).
- Secrecy and excommunication. This is a big warning sign for Stanton. They attempt to maintain a high level of secrecy, and do not want their churches to have websites or lessons published on the Internet. Paul would have loved the openness of the Internet. Stanton has had entire talks given at meetings about the need for secrecy. The “excommunication” or withdrawal as a tool to stifle dissent is also a warning sign.
I want to first say, you, me whoever, need to be discerning in how to approach those still a part of the CofC. Not because of being weak in what we want to say but because for those struggling to stay or leave, it is a spiritual battle. For those engulfed in it's fire, you only increase its intensity and reasoning is burnt away. I now have no qualms with cult as an apt description. When I was part of the CofC, my dad used the term, which made me determined to prove he was wrong. You may be surrounded… Read more »
Thanks for your feedback, Teresa.
Cult Mind Control – Initially I had a difficult time completely understanding all of the ways the SCOC sect practices mind control. In the SCOC cult mind control is learned behavior from seeing and hearing and modeling those considered to be “spiritual.” In watching the Leah Remini – Scientology and the Aftermath (and the SCOC is extremely similar to Scientology) in the last episode Steve Hassan, who wrote a book called Combatting Cult Mind Control, spoke about the identifying marks of mind control– and a light came on when he shared the information. I went on his website to find… Read more »
Yes, I've recorded the Remini documentary, but not watched it yet. Several people have recommended it. Several people have also recommended Hassan's books. I think it might be helpful to point out that by "mind control," it's not like there is an evil cabal plotting maliciously to manipulate members, like in a sci-fi movie. That's where some might be put off by the Scientology comparison, since that organization is clearly money and power hungry, corrupt to the core. By contrast, Stanton's members are people that, by and large, truly believe what they've been taught, from top to bottom. There may… Read more »
Steve Hassan is a good start but there is much more to be learned. Robert J. Lifton, an U.S. air force psychologist was tasked with debriefing as many people as he could who were exiting Communist Chinese "reeducation camps" in 1951 and wrote the book "Thought reform and the psychology of totalism." He was able to lay out the basic methods use by a political cult and the same methods are also used by religious cults, educational cults, business cults, etc. The lessons on identifying cult methodology apply to many area's of life. Milieu or environmental control is one that… Read more »
Milieu or environmental control was achieved in communist China by putting people in prison for three years. Prison allowed communist authorities to control every aspect of the prisoners life and thus control the prisoners thought process. By controlling the stimuli a person was exposed to for three years they were able to "brainwash" the inmate into believing their communist doctrine. The SCOC uses the doctrine of "worldly" for all non members. By labeling all non members as worldly a degree of isolation is achieved. The prohibitions on TV, radio, movies, and newspapers further isolates a church member. Surrounding a member… Read more »
There was two individuals in the church whom I never met but they were talked about constantly for all their bad decisions. These two individuals had done just about everything and had fallen away and came back at least three hundred times that I counted. The man's name was "one brother" and the woman's name was "one sister". Every time I had an idea I was told no we don't do that because: one time, one brother did that, then fell away, or one sister had done that exact same thing and fell away. Everything I though of doing something,… Read more »
Anon Jan 19, 2017 12:45 PM That is what control is all about. They instill fear in you before they instill love. It is hard to love somebody you are afraid of or afraid to do anything around. When I moved into a new house one of the older sisters (in the faith) came to me and went on about how people can move into a house and get carried away with beautifying their yard and house. I never even hinted that I was even going to do that, but she had to let me know. Tacoma is well know… Read more »
I think that one brother and one sister got married but I could never confirm it. I heard it said that one time one couple did something and they fell away; so I deduced that they may have gotten married at some point.
There are many "extra biblical" teachings within the SCOC. Some use: "Merie said", some use:"Alexander Campbell said", and some use "one brother" or "one sister" to teach their opinion rather than maintain scriptural discipline and say because it is written in the law of the Lord. Satan used "because it is written" in his temptation of Christ so a contextual understanding is also required of the scriptures; which requires much study to develop. With all the running each week, and all the holiday trips, and all the first friday of the month class held in the neighboring state or congregation… Read more »
I was taught that the reason we don't use wine as medicine as Paul told timothy in 1 Timothy 5:23 is because today we have more modern medicines that can be used. I wonder if we can apply the more modern reasoning to other things in the scriptures? Musical instruments cost money as would music lessons and constant practice would be necessary. If we used more modern reasoning we could use electronic methods to play music as Christians sing. My suggestion for musical accompaniment would be Ememien's gospel album. The personal work could be more modern also; instead of going… Read more »
I use the definition of the word "cult" provided by Margaret Singer, psychologist and author of Cults in our midst. A cult is a group started by an individual that claims if you just give all of your decision making over to the leader they will share secret knowledge or understandings with you. The main difference between organized, recognized, and institionalized religions and cults is that religions have the followers recognize and venerate God, place your adoration toward God, and his commandments and principles; and cults have the followers place the adoration and veneration upon the leader. A cult can… Read more »
I am painting my house, so this provided a good opportunity to listen to the video Buddy suggested. I found Margaret Singer (not to be confused with the evil Margaret Sanger who started Planned Parenthood) to be very interesting, and her opinions useful in identifying cult-like behaviors. Does every bullet point she presented align with Stanton? No, but many, many of them do. And I think the more you read about characteristics of modern cults (meaning primarily groups with abusive control over members), the more you'll see Stanton's techniques described accurately. Does that mean they know they are doing it… Read more »
I find in many places in the Bible where one person leads the people of God; both old and new testament. Men like Abraham, Issac, and Jacob in the period of the patriarchs, Moses, Elijah, Daniel, in the Mosaic age, and Christ, Peter and Paul in the apostolic period. They all had special powers given to them by God such as the ability to part the red sea, raise the dead, blind the wicked. Today we do not have such miraculous powers, so how are we to determine who God has chosen to lead his people? In the COC the… Read more »
I see my role, and the role of this blog, as exactly that…leading people back to the one true Shepherd, Jesus Christ. Everything else…doctrines, churches, actions, motives, etc…will fall into place once He is put into His proper place in each of our lives.
I was told that the method of teaching was called "reproof" but in reality it was personal attacks and not reproof at all. The teaching preacher did not site a scripture for his criticism but rather his personal disapproval for a behavior he saw and did not like. One example is in the singing of church songs; if they were not sung his way, then he got angry, and would even stop the song and make the congregation start over. I thought that Christianity was about learning the goodness that come from obeying Gods law and the curses that come… Read more »
I learned something very interesting this week: a talent was a unit of measurement, usually for gold or silver, in ancient Greece around 440 BC. In Matthew 25:14-30 Christ teaches the parable of the talents. It is interesting that in using the word talent he is historically correct about the unit of measurement used prior to his existence, more proof of the historical accuracy of the Bible. The parable of the talents teaches some very interesting things: one God observes man's behavior and uses it to teach the righteous lessons, two the method of management approved by God as wise… Read more »
In my line of work I have to interact with criminals on a regular basis and one thing I notice is that criminals do not hold jobs, they do not have occupations or careers, they do not do regular work. Most are thieves of one sort or another to support their needs, and the most despised of all criminals is the ones who turn in their fellow criminals for reward or to save themselves; the "snitch". The man who killed Bill Cosby's son was turned in by his own brother for the millions offered in reward. In the scriptures I… Read more »
If you take the parable of the talents in Matt 25:14-30 and apply it to the Apostles you develop a keen understanding. Which Apostle produced the most with the gift God gave him? Paul the Apostle shared the gospel with thousands, if not millions, of people across the last two thousand years with the Pauline epistles. Peter shared the gospel with his brother Andrew, and their friends James and John, but Judas did not share the gospel at all; he was the one talent Apostle and true to the parable what he had, was taken, and given to another to… Read more »
The second dumbest animal in the animal kingdom is the one who does not know who its enemies are, and the dumbest animal of all is the one who will work with its enemy to destroy itself. I was the dumbest Christian on the earth because the scriptures are full of warnings about enemies, both carnal and spiritual, yet because in the sermon on the mound Christ said in Mathew 5:43-44 to love your enemies I was blind to just who my enemies are as a Christian and just how deadly they can be. Knowing and avoiding your spiritual enemies… Read more »
Proverbs 1:27-28 says that: when fear cometh upon you as desolation and destruction as a whirlwind then man calls upon God, but God refuses to hear for the rejection man made earlier in his life. As A christian I always thought this a curse upon unbelievers but in reading the book of Job in chapter one this is just what happened to Job: he was made desolate and was destroyed very quickly. I find therefore that desolation and destruction cometh upon both the righteous and the wicked, it is a trail, and not a curse. Job had one thing that… Read more »
Very wise observation, Anon 12:51. Faith is what allows the Christian going through adversity to rise above it and still live a selfless life. Lack of faith will embitter that same person against the world and keep them in the pits of despair. Faith doesn't keep one from adversity, contrary to what Stanton often implies (or comes right out and says, depending on whom you're talking to). That doesn't mean God doesn't "chasten those whom he loves." He does. But "the rain also falls on the just and the unjust," and "all things happen for good to those who love… Read more »
I read a criticism this week of Christianity, of what fools Christians are for following the teaching of Christ in the sermon on the mount, to love your enemies and do good to them and pray for them. The criticism is that this is suicide: to let your enemies into your life who will do you harm, and this is just what Christ did with Judas. Christ not only taught love your enemies but he also did what he taught by choosing Judas and letting him in and loving him, and this led to Christ's death; a indirect suicide in… Read more »
Phobia indoctrination is cult 101. It is necessary to induce fear into followers to get them to obey the leader; fear is obedience. All emotion based decisions are of a short duration; because once the emotion wears off the decision is forgotten, therefore constant reinforcement is necessary to keep followers fearful and obedient. One technique of constant reinforcement is to take credit for natural phenomenon such as earthquakes, hurricanes, tornado's. In the SCOC they did not claim to control natural phenomenon but did claim to understand God's will behind such occurrence's and it was always explained that God was angry… Read more »
AnonymousFebruary 10, 2017 at 12:51 PM I agree with this. This is what builds and tests our faith. Years ago, my wife and I lost our jobs on the same day. We worked at the same place. We had to eventually get on TANF. My wife got schooling paid for and my health got worse and had to fight for disability. It was really tight. The money we were getting each month was not enough to pay our bills. We were paying my wife's father inlaw money he spent for our home and I couldn't pay that. It didn't set… Read more »
Psalms 55:23 says that the wicked will not live out half their days and in Psalms 90:10 it says that our days are limited to threescore and ten days (which is seventy years) and fourscore by strength (eighty years) so half a persons life is about 35-40 years. Jesus Christ lived only about thirty three years, less than half his days, and he was the most obedient man to God who ever lived; so an early death can be a curse upon the wicked or: proof of a righteous life. Every human either wicked or righteous is subject to the… Read more »
I never liked the evangelist in Spring Valley even though I knew him only from a distance. The Lord' treasury here in Phoenix was held in reserve for him and the other national leaders. While the poor in the congregation went hungry at times, and the single mom's lived in poverty some not getting any child support from their children's fathers. Phoenix had thousands of dollars in its treasury so much that it was put into a money market certificate to earn even more money. The evangelist would start bellyaching about money as if he was the only one to… Read more »
In 2 Kings 4 it tells the story of Elisha the prophet and a Shunammite woman. The woman served the man of God, and she was blessed with a child, but the child died. The Shunammite woman went to the man of God and in verse 27 Elisha said that the Lord had it hid from him and had not told Elisha the matter. Today we understand from Hebrews 11:35 that through faith the woman received her dead back to life. God set a very powerful yet subtle example here and that is the women, who serve the men, who… Read more »
The wisdom of god is so simple, so plain that it is easy to miss. Psalms 146:8 says that God opens the eyes of the blind and this is both carnally and spiritually. A lack of understanding is known as being spiritually blind. In Proverbs 6:10 it says yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep: so shall thou poverty come. I always though it should say "a lot of sleep, a lot of slumber" but it is very accurate for what is being said. Any behavior that is reinforced becomes stronger and… Read more »
Why did the Jews hate Christ so much that they took and killed him? Consider this: the kingdom of the Jews was one based upon superiority, that is pride. Every Jew wanted to be rich and powerful just like Solomon. Christ's kingdom is a kingdom of servants where everyone is equal. The Jews were so rich that the high priest lived in a palace. Along comes Christ and tells them that there kingdom is no longer the way and that they should sell all they have and give to the poor and come and serve God. This did not sit… Read more »
If you are not getting understandings from your studies consider Proverbs 14:6 the scorner seeketh wisdom and findeth it not, but knowledge is easy to him that understandeth. I find that there is one very specific behavior that opens the floodgates of understanding. Proverbs 11:22 says that as a jewel of gold in a swines snout so is a fair woman that is without descretion, if you lived in Israel during Christs day and saw a pig with jewel of gold you would go and beat that pig and take the jewel for yourself, what does a pig need with… Read more »
Do the slothful know they are slothful? No they are self deceived. I just finished a study on sloth and I now realize how slothful I am. Sloth unlike other sins is not seen in what is done, i.e. fornicators/adulterers have illegitimate children, and murders have bodies; but sloth is observed in what is not done. The slothful say they are willing to work but are waiting for better circumstances. this excuse deceive them and the first identification of slothfulness is:procrastination. The second subtle sign of sloth is: making little soft choices. A little sleep, a little more idle prattling,… Read more »
Very good analysis, and yes, I too suffer from bouts of slothfulness and procrastination. Doing good things can be excuses for procrastinating harder but necessary things. So it is a daily battle to grow and become more disciplined in all areas of life; not just intellectual study, but physical labor, mentoring relationship, family leadership, household duties, job responsibilities, areas of ministry and service, etc. In my experience, no one person can do all of these perfectly, though. This is why the executive of a fast growing, multimillion dollar company often has a a good work ethic, but a family that… Read more »
Another study that it did was on being a piece of bread. In John 6:35 Christ said "I am the bread of life" and I gather that it is Christ who is our spiritual provider. In Proverbs 6:26 Solomon wrote that by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread; meaning a provider of carnal things. In Genesis 29:20 we see an example of this with Jacob serving seven years for Rachael but getting Leah and then serving another seven years for Rachael and serving Laban twenty years total. Enslavement through pleasure, many people… Read more »
This is the best thing I have seen posted on this blog. Excellent. Will copy this exactly in my very good journal. Thank you.
I wish I could say it was God who granted me an understanding but is really me having to battle the forces of drug abuse in my adult children and it is personal experience. My ex wife let my children watch popular TV and one show they keyed into was "That 70's show". In the TV show it showed the actors whenever they faced a difficult problem they all went to the basement and smoked some weed and magically found the answer they needed. This example was set on the show and followed by my teenage children. However any job… Read more »
The scriptures allow us to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart, not only our own heart but the hearts of others. Their is a certain type of smile shown by predators just before they catch and devour their prey; it is an ear to ear smile with glassy eyes. The predator is so self satisfied that they are truly happy beyond words. On you tube you can look it up under "duping delight" The predator holds the prey in contempt as they lie to them, the attitude is one of "these people are so stupid!" I have seen… Read more »
One way to turn yourself into a piece of bread is through greed or covetousness. In 1849 California there was a gold rush and out of all the people who went west seeking a fortune less than one percent found any gold. Those who found gold had been there for at least three years and had already worked all of the unprofitable claims and found the gold after a long search. The people who really got rich were those who sold shovels, picks, and other gold working tools. The sellers of tools fed off of the "Gold fever" of the… Read more »
Cult leaders Gary & Paula Preman smile "ear to ear" when they read the fear they have inflicted into so many on this blog. The SCOC creates their own "fever" A "Fever of Fear" Fear to confront their hierarchy. They are after all only human. So how do they manage to scare so many adults and children into their bizarre doctrines. Simple IGNORANCE Keeping their flock tightly controlled and ignorant of the truth has worked for them for decades. If all you read and hear is controlled by a few, then you have no chance to learn what exists outside… Read more »
KF I appreciate your passion, God too has an anger for sin. I would ask however that you change your approach from one of emotion to one of reason over emotion. In Proverbs 6:12-15 it says: A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. Naughty connotes a person with a sexual perversion such as masterbation, or sodomy, or adultery. The naughty person loses self respect and resorts to put downs and disrespect of others to make themselves feel better, they lift themselves up by cutting others down. When you use the approach of disrespect you are easily… Read more »
Well I took a look at Proverbs and I think as you read through it , one can see that Gary and Paula do act in ways that 16 "doth the Lord hate" 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. Well I'm not sure about the "shedding of innocent blood" But certainly they steal innocence from so many young people that in a manner they… Read more »
Well KF this is going to hurt but it is the truth. In Proverbs 5:7-14 it speaks of a foolish man who lost everything, all his wealth is in the house of a stranger: this is you KF. You have already lost one wife, and for a time your kids, and a bunch of money to the evangelist in Spring Valley and then you post on this blog all of you troubles; but what you are doing is advertising your weakness. You are telling every other man that you are weak and any other man can come into your life… Read more »
Boy! Things sure got personal real quick for Mr. or Mrs Anonymous. There seems to be some sort of hatred towards me. Also some intimate knowledge of my experiences with this cult. When attacks become this personal there are reasons why? Have I hurt you Anony-Mouse? What cause do you have to belittle me and slight me.However your words do not cause hurt but merely illustrate your own inner emotions surfacing when faced with challenges to your cultist actions. You see I am stronger in mind than my-ex wife and I see way beyond what your small flock of followers… Read more »
"Keeping their flock tightly controlled and ignorant of the truth" Because of the control and abuse I left the church for a while and came back in 1999. I knew that teacher who fell away in 2001. I was in Tacoma and she was in Portland. They came up once a week to help us. I was so excited that I was going to see them again at a Boise meeting and was so disappointed at what I saw that whole two days. They were not the same person. Something was off and dark about them. When I got back… Read more »
One of the tools of the oppressors is absolutes. Absolute authority dictate absolute rules for their followers. Right after I was baptized I shared that the meat we were served in the service as soy protein based and I was criticized very quickly by the teacher telling me that in 1 timothy 4:1-4 that the forbidding to eat meats was a doctrine of devils. I was amazed because I had never heard this before; the service was following doctrines of devils! Today I realize that this was taken way out of context and was used to lift the teacher up… Read more »
Galatians 5:9 tells us that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump; and this needs to be considered in our behavior, that is: how is my behavior, my example, going to be followed by others? My first teaching preacher was a man without any boundaries if you sinned, he went off on you like an atomic bomb. The teaching preacher would yell, scream, and get very personal. In time all the Christians in my congregation would follow his example and become just like him, first they would verbally abuse their families and then their brethren. The apple does not fall… Read more »
Wonderful article Kevin! I too see the Stanton group as a cult, and for the same reasons you stated. But I don't call them that to insult them, or to call names. It's just simply what they are. I, too, have tried to be careful and not say the word "cult", but I am realizing that it hasn't been effective. I'm now starting to think I may have to use it, and when someone calls me on it to present the facts to them-as you did. Then, challenge them to prove to me that the Stanton group doesn't do any… Read more »
Thanks Debby, I appreciate you sharing your perspective. Please understand, everyone—I'm not at all confident that this approach will work any better. But it's where I'm at in my understanding of the problem, and how best to address it in a Christlike manner—with hard truth communicated in love.
Kevin, that is what ones need and must realize-that we aren't saying these things or stating that the Stanton group is a cult out of bitterness or hatred or anger. We are saying these things out of love and concern.
And, it is not easy to admit that I was a part of a group that is a cult and uses cult techniques. Like you, I believe that a majority of ones in the group don't intend to do these things for a wrong motive, but it is still true. For them all, we pray and love them
Kevin I believe it is your responsibility , and mine, to call this sect for what it truly is! For myself, when a groups' goal is to convince its members that there IS NO OTHER "church that exists, THAT IS A CULT. They teach that there exists only ONE WAY to have God. When they demand that you do not associate(be friends) with anyone outside their sect- this is a CULT. When they convince family members to isolate themselves from their physical family, even if it means for the rest of their lives, THIS IS A CULT. When a sect… Read more »
Thanks for the encouragement, Donna. I could be wrong, but it feels like there are big things happening…people leaving the group, eyes being opened to the unscriptural doctrines, more people seeking a relationship with God who had given up, people taking their family members to visit a church for the first time. I literally got a little choked up a couple times yesterday. God is doing way more with this blog than I ever imagined. Ephesians 3:16-21 – I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so… Read more »
I left too long ago, but you said "I could be wrong, but it feels like there are big things happening…people leaving the group". How do you know such thing
People call me, email me, and contact me on Facebook.
For me what was missing, caused me great doubts as to the claim "we are the one true church." The SCOC does not teach moral lessons, or virtues, or to praise God, rather they teach obedience to the leader. Obedience is their main understanding. The lack of ethical behavior among the preachers/ teachers is astounding. DS, a leader in SCOC, has a very short temper, no self control over his emotions, and the scripture teaches gentleness 2 Tim 2:24 is a requirement in church leaders. The main method of teaching with SCOC is disdain and not love; "what did you… Read more »
but how many. 10-20 or 30? Big folks or small folks in their ranks like a irritated sinner like me
I can't comment on that. While a mass exodus would make a statement, that's not my primary goal here. I just want people to seek God, and they'll figure out what to do.
can't? or isit that there just aren't that many and the many seem to be the same ones over and over agin griping about same old thing. can i get on ur face bk page?
1. I can't because I won't share information that has been shared in confidence, or that can be used to try to identify people. I know this would just add to their intimidation through public rebukes. People leaving need to be the ones to share their own stories. 2. I never suggested I knew of a large number of people leaving. A "mass exodus" would be welcome, but I have no knowledge of a lot of people leaving. 3. My "feeling" that big things are happening is not just about people leaving. It's that good things are happening. I spent… Read more »
I was raised in the church from 7 years old. I've lost communication with my family because of unscriptual teachings. I miss my mother and siblings dearly. It breaks my heart daily. I'm know almost all of you and i wish we could organize a fellowship and discuss ways to free our loved ones from this cult.
[Original post was on 9/25, reposted due to technical glitch.]
To Anon 6:56, a lot of people are in your position, myself included. Cults do tend to isolate people from their families…or anyone else who is considered a threat to keeping control over the member. You're not alone here, and I wish we had a way to do a get together as well. I'm in the Boise area for anyone who wants to meet up here. I'm always available to meet for coffee, breakfast, or just a phone call.
attn: Kevin and those who read my comments and posts on this site.It seems I will be dying of pancreatic cancer shortly, so please hear me out. This post is in regards to the various statements made on Kevin Harper's Stanton Church of Christ site (COC). Please forgive me for coming onto this site speaking evil against the COC and showing my discontent with my withdrawl in the COC for sowing seeds of discord. I realize I was guilty and am taking care of my sins. I hope you all find what you are looking for and that god may… Read more »
David S., first, my heart and prayers go out for you. This life is temporary thing. I will pray for you and those who love you. I have to say I'm saddened that your honest conversation and inquiry after truth on the pages of this blog is something you've been guilted into recanting. I have to concur with KF that the fear this sect instills in its members runs deep and bypasses all scriptural logic. That said, I'm thankful that God will have mercy on us as we all are imperfect in our understanding of his immeasurable grace and goodness.… Read more »
Totally agree with what Kevin and KS wrote and I wanted to say that David you do not have to ask forgiveness for telling the truth – even if it is the truth about your experience and what has been said or witnessed by you of those in power. Bear in mind David that those persecuting you now are also sinners- and per the Apostle John, they are liars if they think they are not. I am sorry but GP is a hypocrite. I recall on a CD him saying he "… wanted to hurt her" referring to a woman… Read more »
David my heart goes out to you! Please know and understand that your self worth is NOT based on man! Look to the Lord and He makes us worthy through His Mercy, Grace, and Love.
I realized last night that I had labeled my greatest error in staying with the Stanton churches as "MAN-PLEASING". That is not correct. I allowed MAN to judge my SELF-WORTH. Now I understand that my self-worth rests on no man, but rather between me and my Savior.
You are in my prayers brother.
Have you ever watched a movie and it 'hits home' with the underlying meaning behind it. The animated movie "Home" made me wonder if the writer was an ex-Stanton member??? When "O" came to realize that is was his own "Boovs" who were the enemy. He realized they had all been lied to. Emotions were not something a Boov displayed. Humans were made out to be some evil thing to stay away from. Family ties and expression of love was non-existent. The Boov "O" was the only one brave enough to step out, to quit running away, and stand up… Read more »
Absolutely
I most definitely use the term “cult” to describe my experience with SCOC. For perspective, I was involved with the church from 1976 – 1990. My mom joined the Stanton congregation when I was a child (11). I experienced the “unclean children” phase of the late seventies; tied up at night, spanked daily, and the special Sunday School class for the unclean children. I’m sad but not surprised to see a theme of recurring child abuse on the posts here.When I left, I didn’t consider the church a cult. I did think that they couldn’t possibly have “the truth”. It… Read more »
WOW! Very well said Dora! And spot on!
@dorap Thank you, that was excellent insight from your experiences.
I see my time with the SCOC as a learning period, learning what not to do to others. As I study psychology it explains that there are only three ways that human being think, with your pride and you develop a superiority complex (arrogant), with your lust and you develop an inferiority complex (doormat), or with your conscience (equality)and you develop high self esteem from treating others as equals. Jesus Christ taught equality in all of his teachings making the Jew and gentiles equal before God because they both had faith. The arrogant constantly seek for as feeling of superiority… Read more »
Dora your experiences explain some of my experiences with older members (those that knew Merie in the flesh) in Phoenix. My children were segregated at a very young age (when they were toddlers)into the unclean children's group but it was not explained to me why they were treated differently than the teachers, preachers, and older members children. I don't believe a toddler can be unclean it is just and excuse to exalt the teachers and their families over other members families. Once when being babysat by the wife of the Mercedes mechanic the Mercedes mechanic came home and greeted my… Read more »
This TedXTalk is about a woman raised in a cult.
https://youtu.be/-U4Cq-dgNnw
Watching videos made by ex cult members, especially ex-Jehovah Witnesses is extremely eye opening. I am very surprised how similar the language and thinking of the JWs is to the SCOC. There is a large movement of exJWs on YouTube and I have thoroughly enjoyed watching their videos.
To clarify the post above – the TedXTalk was given by a former member of a group called ‘The Assembly’.
The behavior that is most offensive in "cults" is that of exploitation. Corrupt leaders will recruit, love bomb, then enslave their followers to themselves to exploit them for as long as possible. In the book "the cult next door" by Elizabeth R Burchard the group she was in was a "New Age" cult and not a bible based cult but the domination and control tactics are very similar. The leader of her group taught that doctors are not needed and her mother followed his teachings even though she developed a tumor in her breast she would not seek medical attention… Read more »
Anon 3:58, thank you so much for sharing that TED talk. Wow, I've seen a few speakers on various cults but that one…that's the simplest yet most effective one. The things she says about the cult she was raised in, while different than Merie's, has so many things in common. I want to go back and re-watch it and just jot down a few key phrases that really spoke to me. One thing she stated "Even the worst day of freedom is better than the best day in the cult" is something that I can definitely connect with. I felt… Read more »
Members of the SCOC often think the love they experience in the church is unique to the SCOC. After listening to YouTube videos made by exJWs they too thought the love they experienced in ‘the truth’ was unique.
All I can say is as a family member I was duped. All of this going on right in front of me. Thank goodness some are out but praying the rest get out.
Anon 9:08 I agree. Not only do they think the "love" they experience is unique, they teach that their persecution is unique (or imply it) because they are the true church, as if they were really "persecuted" in its true sense, and as if Christians around the world weren't persecuted for real. Their idea of persecution is a mockery of it. There are Christians in other countries being killed for confessing Christ and being baptized into His body. Yet this group claims they are the ones being persecuted because they hold "the truth". When you see that there are hundreds… Read more »
I was reading the comments from the so many people from various religious cults who watched this video. This one, from an ex-JW, caught my eye. (MY additions are capitalized). Typical Signs for cults that derived from Christianity are that: There is a prophet that had a revelation from an angel, or God himself, telling him that the church has been wrong these whole centuries (MERIE WEISS, CLAIMING THAT NO OTHER CHURCH HELD THE TRUTH IN RIGHTEOUSNESS). That this movement is the only way to salvation (MERIE WEISS AND ALL LEADERS OF HER CULT TAUGHT THIS AND STILL DO-THAT THEY… Read more »
M Long12:12 sounds very familiar as Merie’s cult looks at every other “cult” as being so far off, they do not see themselves as similar or worse. You see much clearer folks when you get away from Merie’s cult. For myself I think “I was really involved with them”. Yikes, yes and no as a NONMEMBER. You withdrew from a NONMEMBER GP. Come on now prove doing so with scripture. You can not GP just as you don’t treat people as they are withdrawn from when they never were. Unscriptural again GP. You are adding to God’s word. And your… Read more »
Here is a simple video presenting some things that should help people a little bit. https://youtu.be/t3mllQxJylA Website with good information on different cults http://www.howcultswork.com/ There's a whole lot more to this kind of topic but the basics are important. Everyone needs to research these things so you can decide the truth for yourselves. The SCOC won't talk about these things honestly, that's why people get in trouble for asking questions and reading this site. I can't speak for everyone else but I post on here not to destroy their church or to attack the people still there. Most of the… Read more »
That's a good YouTube Anon 727
Thank you. There are a lot of videos on the topic but most are lists that don't really expand on it. This was one of the best I could find that had an easy to follow presentation. I plan on posting more things I find to share with others. One movie I recommend is Spotlight. It's about the true story of how the journalist team Spotlight from the Boston Globe helped uncover child sexual abuse in the Catholic church WORLDWIDE back in the early 2000's that is still being uncovered today. It has no sex scenes and the only "strong… Read more »
Satan is his attempts to seduce the righteous from God has one common tactic and that is to get the person to go against their conscience, and break one of God's commandments. If a person will go against their conscience one time then it is only a matter of time before Satan will get the person to go against their conscience again and break another one of God's laws, and again and again until the person has broken all of God's commandments one by one. Once completely corrupted by Satan's influence then the person is rejected by God and cast… Read more »
Eschatology is a class of cults that are based upon the part of theology concerned with death, judgement, and the final destiny of the soul and of humankind. This class of cults ignore the rest of christian doctrine and operate upon fear of the last judgement day, doom and gloom cults. Jehovah Witness fall in this class of cults, they recruit through fear of the end of the world but when the end of the world does not come as they have predicted them many of their converts leave their religion. The panic button of fear is pressed and people… Read more »
One of the phobias I was indoctrinated with comes from 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 where it says that God would send strong delusions that some should believe a lie, and I was told that this would happen to me if I left the church. In my studies this week I came across the delusion of megalomania where a person has a false sense of superiority, or grandiose delusions, or delusions of grandeur. A delusion is a belief that is persisently held despite evidence to the contrary. When a person believes themselves to be God they are under a delusion of granduer.… Read more »
Some good points on Narcissism. I'm still researching these types of behavior myself. There was actually a study done that suggested 80-90% of Christian pastors are Narcissistic. The position of power and authority attracts these types of people. It's why so many churches have problems with oppression, especially sects/cults that split off from main line Christianity that go on to teach their own doctrines. Usually it's started by narcissism. Also for those confused on 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 it's referring to the people that will be deceived in Revelation and made to worship the beast's image. That will all happen after… Read more »
Abstract reasoning is so important to develop to prevent being seduced and led away from the truth. Abstract reasoning describes thoughts that are symbolic and conceptual and not concrete or specific. Concrete thinking focuses on the present or here and now specificity while abstract thinking is based on concepts, principles, and relationships between ideas and objects. A principle is defined as a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief of behaviors or for a chain of reasoning. The chain of reasoning (wisdom) is what attracted me to the Merie group for they had… Read more »
In the field of psychology there is an area in the intelligence community that psychologists are used extensively and that is counter intelligence. In CI a member of enemy group is captured and interrogated. Many members of enemy groups are trained to resist interrogation and have to be regressed before they will become compliant. Regression starts by putting the person under duress. Duress starts with isolation, and then hostile interrogaters, and many other brutal methods. However those under duress have to be watched by a psychologist for psychological damage in the form of hallucinations and delusions, if the duress is… Read more »
Are you in a mind control group or cult? Do you feel that no matter how hard you try, the “good deeds” you perform for your group are never quite enough? As a result of this do you often feel plagued with feelings of guilt? What are you motivated by? Is it genuine love for God and the group etc., or is it fear of not meeting the desired standards? Is questioning the group, or the group leaders, discouraged or frowned upon? Does the group you belong to believe that it is an elite and exclusive organization which alone has… Read more »
Good Morning Everyone! I read the above and from what I have observed over the years this is right on….I would love for my grandchildren to read this…..we who know about what they are doing cannot keep our heads buried in the sand….pretending g it is not happening. It is a very delicate situation for me as grandpa has passed away. I need him here for the support he would give me and together we would discuss the elephant in the room instead of pretending it does not exist . Any suggestions people?
Concerning the questions above regarding typical cult behavior, I believe every one of those questions about the group’s behavior starting with ‘Is questioning the group or the group leaders frowned upon?’ are ALL true of the SCOC.
Jo, as grandma you ave a little more space. I have noticed my mom has been able to talk to my kids (at least as a correction) when they outright disrespected me. She reminds them of the scriptures of honor your parents and stuff like that. Not often, just when an incident has happened and she is here. She also reminds them of my love for them. She doesn't get too much into the cult because they would probably stop talking to her like they have so many others. There's no gathering and intervening… just set a good example so… Read more »
I am blessed to have always had my grandchildren around me. They are well aware we have always been members of another church and that I listened to music and had a TV and did many things that were not allowed in their church such as Christian concerts,celebrate holidays, etc. vacation whenever we wanted to schedule one,etc. and they have always been respectful to me. However, we just don’t talk about the cult.
Anon 10:31 great questions and so fitting for members of the cult to answer. Every question and your entire comment is a perfect description of Merie’s cult. Not even the SV paid preacher GP could argue them. Spot on.