1 John 4:18 – There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
Since starting this blog, I have been sent thank you notes from members, former members, and children of members. Those still connected to the group almost always ask for anonymity to prevent retribution in the form of public rebukes, withdrawals, or “marking and avoiding” of themselves or family members. Several have come to me with tangible fear that if the church leaders found out they were talking to me, there would be severe consequences. Others have told of confirmed instances of gossip and slander that have been spread about them.
Some tell me how courageous I am, and that’s embarrassingly untrue. Real courage would have been speaking out like this a couple of decades ago. Right now, I am just in a much easier position to speak out than many others, because I am out of their reach. My kids are mostly adults, and I have no fear that they will ever get sucked into the unbiblical doctrines of this church. Besides, I really don’t fear what man can do to me, and I feel a sense of mission to help those who have been hurt by this sect’s abusive and unbiblical practices.
They have already tried to attack my character and say this blog is full of lies and evil, but I will allow no man to judge my motives. As David said, “Search my heart and try me O God.” I know the truth, God knows the truth, and my family knows the truth. I have nothing but pure motives and a mission to speak the truth in love about this sect’s wild abuse of scripture to support its bizarre and unbiblical doctrines. We can’t judge another person’s motives, but it’s high time we start judging fruits of this sect’s 45+ year history.
If you know my mom, ask her if I’ve ever been bitter about the church, or out for retaliation. I have not once felt that way, and I know she’s honest and will vouch for me. Instead, I feel compassion that they don’t know God like they think they do, and that is my motivation for writing this blog. In fact, the only thing keeping me from doing this years earlier was my love for my mom and my desire for her not to get caught in the middle of this exercise in truth-telling. But too much damage is being done in the name of God, and the rocks will cry out if someone doesn’t speak out.
I remember well the fear and intimidation tactics used on members growing up in the church, but at the time, I was conditioned to think that was normal Christianity. It wasn’t until adulthood that it dawned on me that we just shouldn’t treat our fellow human beings like that. I’m ashamed that I didn’t see at the time how destructive to a person’s soul were some of the practices that went on in the name of God.
It was well-intentioned, no doubt, as were Saul’s persecutions of the early church. I’m sure it was done, and probably continues to be done, under the banner of keeping the church pure, just as the inquisitions of old. Some of the fear and intimidation was done behind the scenes, but much of it was in plain view. Stories continue to come in about horrible abuses of power way back then that are confirmed by my memories from my childhood and teen years.
For instance, I remember the witch hunts over all sorts of sexual behavior, even questioning members, like Nazi prison guards, about individuals’ thought lives. Members were asked to tattle on other members, particularly wives on husbands. Secret lists were passed around between the “older ones” about the supposed “signs” of deviant behavior, and this has been confirmed by multiple sources. I remember being told my 4th grade teacher was probably a sexual deviant. I’m pretty sure that’s blatant evil surmising and slander.
The evil done to individuals and families in the name of God was atrocious, and some forms of this abuse are happening to this day. For instance, I have received word that teaching has gone out about sexual deviancy associated with this blog somehow. I really don’t know if it was an accusation leveled at me or at a particular commenter, but either way, the attempts to silence dissent using fear and intimidation continue. It is evil surmising and slander to the worst degree.
The longer this wrong behavior persists, the easier it is for members to ignore it, because their consciences become seared with a hot iron. When you see people mistreated and oppressed for decades, it becomes easy to turn a blind eye, like the German neighbors who became so accustomed to Jew-bashing that it was a normal part of self-protection. Someone needs to have some courage. Stop the cowardice, and draw a line in the sand and say “no more,” regardless of the consequences. It’s just not right.
I was young and not privy to everything going on back when I was younger, but I saw and overheard enough to know that something wasn’t right. Because of the group’s grossly mistaken understanding of unity, they can’t admit even the slightest dissent within their ranks. To admit dissent is tantamount to admitting the Holy Spirit isn’t with them, because that’s how they’ve framed the debate–the Holy Spirit is what gives them unity. If that were true, they would arrive at the same conclusions without conferring with each other on the phone or at May Meetings.
The scary truth is that you can’t speak out from within the group, because any dissent from the “teachings of the church” (i.e. the opinions the Teachers arrive at during the May Meeting) will get you withdrawn from eventually. You are fooling yourself if you think you can reform the existing power structures from within. Those who hold dissenting opinions are silenced or rebuked publicly, and forced to “wait it out” until it can be discussed at a May Meeting.
I know of members who are still in the group today, who acknowledge there are wrong teachings, but who remain in it with faith that the church will eventually change its doctrines to conform with the truth. This sounds a lot like Catholicism to me. When all else fails, wait for a new pope. In the meantime, decades may pass, families may be broken up (as with the rulings on divorce and remarriage), and withdrawals may continue to estrange fathers and sons, mothers and daughters.
It’s time to step up to the plate and end this abuse of conscience. It is not wrong to tell the truth about this sect. We must do it in love, but it must be done.
If you remain afraid of their fear and intimidation tactics, it is simply because you’ve given them that power over you. God has not given us a spirit of fear. They do not stand in the place of God, although they would like you to think that. You are not fearing God when you fear them; you are fearing man.
I am curious Kevin, what do you expect to achieve from planting doubt in people?
This website is not about personal achievement. It's purpose is to enlighten all those who desire to be able to think for themselves. The Stanton Church of Christ is a doctrine that certainly follows some biblical ruling but also an absurd amount of rulings and judgements by self-proclaimed high-ranking members of the church. Church of Weiss, Church of Smith, or Church of Preman would be much more fitting names for the church so long as it continues it's current course of operation. "Seeds of doubt" need to be firmly planted in every member so they can truly determine if they… Read more »
Nice reply Spencer 🙂
You've probably seen it by now, but here's what I hope to achieve by planting seeds of doubt:
https://www.stantonblog.com/2013/08/planting-seeds-of-doubt.html
Kevin, What is your doctrine, specifically. I know the love and Jesus etc., but what is essential to salvation in your understanding?
Ah, the desire through the ages has been to divide the Bible up into the two chapters of the "essentials" and the "non-essentials," hasn't it? Alexander Campbell had something to say about that.
However, if asked to communicate to someone who asks me "what must I do to be saved?," I would have to answer as Peter did with the pure and simple Gospel–the Good News–as preached and obeyed on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2.
And your contention toward the Stanton Churches is they do not teach the Gospel? Hear (the Gospel) repent, confess, believe and be baptsed for the remission of sins? I believe they are very strong on that. Or is your contention the judgments taught?
I do believe the gospel is preached and obeyed at the Stanton churches, however, I believe it is not really understood and experienced to be the Good News that it really is. But as Alexander Campbell once said: "The not understanding of this institution has prevented many Christians from enjoying its benefits; but the not understanding it does not make them aliens from the kingdom of Jesus." People end up being more converted to "the church" than to Christ, and adoring and honoring it more than Jesus Christ himself. That is the textbook definition of idolatry. So yes, my problem… Read more »
Hi all. I will do my best to attempt to be as rational as possible. But I must speak up. Many of you may know my father… he has been a preacher/teacher for Stanton, Pensacola, Eugene, and would sometimes go to Portland, Boise and Vallejo. I remember sitting on Marie Weiss' lap and she would read the Bible to me. As I grew up in the CoC I was introduced to many bizarre incidents. As many of of children were, i.e. being tied (hands and feet) to my bed every night, beatings, Using Eph.6:1.."Children obey your parents"…intimidation, fear, and severe… Read more »
Hi Jude. I cannot relate to the hand tying, but I can to everything else. I came into the SCOC in 1978 when I was 19 years old. I was very naive. I continued with them for 36 years, up until two and a half years ago. I too, am still trying to heal from the damage this sect did to me and my family. I probably knew your dad at some point, but I can't place who he is. My prayer for you is that you do have hope In God and Christ. All of my children have been… Read more »
Hello Jude! I don't know if you remember me, it was so long ago! But I met you while I was in Portland, I saw you at meetings and the monthly meetings we had with the Eugene congregation!
I'm so sorry you experienced those things but am very happy that you now know that it wasn't of God. And that you also know that God is loving and forgiving! I always liked you back then, and am so pleased that you still have that good heart!
Hi Debby! How are you! The name rings a bell…is there any way you could email me? brokenfeatherartgallery@gmail.com
Dear Anonymous, I want everyone to know the God of the Bible and the hope and assurance and forgiveness and purpose we have through his son, Jesus Christ.
If I'm interested in planting doubt about anything, it's the teachings of men, which I would hope you can agree with me on.
Do you agree that we ought to cast aside any "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men?
Just to add a little bit to what you said Kevin, I want to expand on the God of the Bible. I don't believe Stanton CoC knows what that means. The bible is one story. It is the story of who God is. He makes Himself known to us by detailing…. His creation. His relationship to His people. His plan for them from the very beginning. His faithfulness to deliver on ALL of His promises. His desire to prove himself to all of us through the revelation of prophesies and the perfect preservation of His divine word through all the… Read more »
Amen, very well said. It reminds me of Jesus getting after the Pharisees:
John 5:39 – Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; (ASV)
The Pharisees were very familiar with the scriptures, but it's not the scriptures themselves that bring eternal life…it is the message of Jesus woven throughout its pages.
If "planting doubt" means people are starting to question every aspect of what they have been taught by using discernment and judgment in this sect (because the truth is exposed on this website) I think it is long overdue. Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord …" I believe God wants us to use our minds to discern good and evil, hypocrisy and when teachers and preachers are adding to his Word or taking away from it. Proverbs 30:6 (KJV) "Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a… Read more »
I agree with anonymous 2's statement "If "planting doubt" means people are starting to question every aspect of what they have been taught by using discernment and judgment in this sect (because the truth is exposed on this website) I think it is long overdue."
I recognize postings from people that had dispute with the 'Stanton Church of Christ'.
And your point is what?
If you thought this blog was to **promote** the teachings of the "Stanton Church of Christ" then you were mistaken. Of course there are people commenting that have had disputes with the church, that's the point.
Let's agree to address the merits of the points made in these pages, not the personalities of people commenting.
I would like to see these points defended by the Stanton Church without being concerned with who is making them. Either the "accusation" or "observation" being brought forth is true or it isn't; regardless of who is making it. Are the teachers and preachers of the Stanton Church of Christ guilty of 'teaching for doctrine the commandments of men' or aren't they? Are they binding their personal 'judgements' on their members? Don't skirt the issues by attacking the person making the statements.
The Stanton Church of Christ is not in the business of defending their doctrines. They are "My way or the highway". And if anyone is guilty of "ad hominem" or skirting the issues by attacking the person it would be Stanton and no one on this site. The church of christ finds it childs play to dismiss what a person says, and to relentlessly attack the faults in their lives. You would think they were a political entity involved in a smear campaign:)
Someone is reporting that church leaders in at least one congregation have compiled a list of names from a Facebook group of disenchanted ex-members and adult children of members and ex-members.
I've personally been asked to shut down the blog, effectively silencing one avenue of public dissent. If there is no intent to silence or intimidate anyone, why collect names, and why ask me to shut down the blog?
And why doesn't church leadership comment on this site under their real names instead of anonymously?
Truth shouldn't be afraid of a lie.
Kevin, I'm sorry to learn that this blog was requested to be shut down. Is freedom of speech not recognized within the CoC? Obviously not. I have posted on this site with my name instead of anonymously. I thought twice about posting my name in fear my parents would be retaliated against and rebuked through my actions. I am an adult. I have tried to understand the CoC throughout my years of searching for God. Your blog is one reason how I came to conclude why I couldn't make sense of the CoC as a child, nor could I make… Read more »
Right now in the world Christianity is under fire. No matter what we think of wrong judgments, decisions, opinions of other Churches of Christ is this the time to cannibalize their work?
Christ himself (a Jew) exposed the oppression of the Pharisees (who also were Jews). The Pharisees had much zeal and they were experts in "the law"; so much so they became self-righteous, self-absorbed and so filled with pride that they thought it was a good idea to add rules (commands/teaching/judgments) to God's word and to bind them on the people. To these self-righteous hypocrites Jesus said, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the Law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have… Read more »
Everything the Stanton Churches teach they themselves do. That I know for a fact. I can't observe them as Pharisaical. They teach others what they have been taught and what they have studied for themselves. WE were taught to study everyday, and I mean study not read. But I do get your point.
When you look at the Pharisees in the bible, what do you observe? I see arrogant, self centered, CRITICAL, judgemental, people who sought to corner JESUS and accuse him of breaking the law every opportunity they had…
They sincerely try to follow the sects teaching mandates, but like the rest of us,they can't do it in their own might.
I disliked the phony changes in behavior when they were around their member friends, and those of us they treated as less than, or non believers.
Anonymous who posted at 4:11PM – Go look at the "Rules" sections on this website which is exactly what the Pharisees did (adding rules to God's word so obviously they thought God's word didn't suffice and through their arrogance what they taught were lies to be followed by the people in order to be righteous). Is it not hypocrisy to say you are a follower of Christ and stick with the bible only when in fact that is in no way the truth? I know I could easily list at least ten additional rules of this sect that are not… Read more »
Please do list them. It's amazing and amusing.
This whole blog is amazing, it's not amusing to me because of the sour taste they left. So many that witnessed this sect first hand were so turned off, it will be hard for some to come to know the Love God offers, not judgement, or being publicly rebuked, very sad.From what I know, damage control can only be from one truly seeking after the truth, and putting the lies, and actions of this sect to bed. I sick that they would come between a husband & wife, even dare to inquire about things that "we are told not to… Read more »
are we going for amusing? Or rather Godly reasoning together. Lets keep this out of a mocking position please.
Some of my best learning experiences were when I learned to laugh at myself over my own doctrinal mistakes. I literally can laugh today at some of the things I once believed because they are so outrageously untrue. Please don't mistake all sarcasm for mean spiritedness. It is possible to love deeply and not want to offend or hurt, but to use sarcasm to emphasize a point that might otherwise be missed. The long list of rules that never seems to end just adds more evidence to the point that the sect has burdened its members with teachings of men… Read more »
But Kevin, my point still applies. We still have the freedom to apply whatever we want in our beliefs. And raise our children as we choose. Baptists have rules, catholics have rules. Where you work has rules, where we play have rules. And I would venture to say that you as a father has rules over your house hold for the good of the house hold.The Stanton Church's rules come from their choice of how they wish to apply scripture as they see it.
Ah, but that's where you're wrong. The Stanton Church teachers don't say "this is my personal conviction on modesty after reading the scriptures, and my advice is that people should probably do such and such."
Instead, they say "our judgment as a group is such and such, and if you don't comply with our judgment, you'll get publicly rebuked and/or shunned for it."
Rules without relationships equals rebellion
Amen to that. This church has put rules and the church as idols, and thrown relationships under the bus.
Anonymous who posted at 12:04 PM: Your argument compares rules in the church to rules in other places. These are outrageous, irrational analogies. At home, we have independent liberty to write our own rules: make the bed, dinner at 6, no yelling, etc. At work, we are paid to follow the rules of our superiors. It is not so in the church! The Pharisees made up their own rules – they put up hedges around sins, then more hedges around those hedges, until their rules gained equal prominence to the law and sometimes superseding the law. One of Jesus' most… Read more »
Amen!! The only two rules that matter are Love God with all your heart, and love your brother. Sin only prevents you from keeping these two rules. If a rule interferes with treating your brother right, than I say trash the rule before you trash your brother.
Excellent points Anonymous (1:00pm) and Anonymous (1:05pm). Thank you.
It's awesome to know that so many readers have retained their faith in God and pursued a relationship with him after their experience in the sect. Some have not been so inclined, and I want them to know the Good News. Not the Fearsome News. Not the Legal News. The Good News. We really can trust God that the gospel is good.
To Anonymous 12/19 12:04…Point #1 you said, "Baptists have rules, Catholics have rules"… Yes, and because they have rules that can't be found in scripture the Stanton CoC teaches that they are not worthy of heaven. Are you saying it's now okay for the Church to have extra-biblical rules that stem from the opinions of the teachers concerning modest apparel? The Bible admonishes us to be modest however it should be up to the individual to work out the details. One woman might chose to wear floor length dresses with close toed shoes, another might chose to have her knees… Read more »
Anonymous 2:53 Great points, good understanding.
I'm in a main stream COC. Heard one preacher say a woman shouldn't look "flashy" once, but he didn't go into detail creating rules (thank God). My rule for myself is that I should not dress like a hooker! Works for me! And if I was 30 or more years younger I think dying part of my hair pink or purple like girls of today sometimes do, or some other color, would be fun and expressive! And I like glitter too (ducking and running). A little sparkle brightens my day and I don't look like a hooker so I won't… Read more »
The preachers/teachers were so angry all of the time for things that weren't even sin! They'd attack someone in class without EVER going to the person out of care or concern first to find out what really happened or better yet, if they needed some help out of love. Maybe it was pure laziness and a power trip; easier to just “teach” on it (or evil surmise & rebuke as the case usually is) just in case it’s true, without any concern about humiliating the person before the congregation (which is just what Satan likes to do, he’s the accuser… Read more »
All of this rhetoric reminds me of Romans 2:15-accusing or else excusing one another.
My 5 year old loves horses, so last night at bedtime I read one of her books to her about horses. Interestingly, it told about how young colts are "broken" to be submissive to a new rider. First, a small framed person will lay on the horse's back. Next a blanket, then a saddle is added, but no rider. Then a bit in the horse's mouth, and eventually, a rider who directs the movements of the horse. It occurred to me how similar the process is to breaking a human being to be controlled by an authoritative church leadership structure.… Read more »
Very true!!! Similar to boot camp in the Navy. "Don't eat candy", "Shine your shoes", "Fold your cloths a certain way", led to, "go to bed at 10 PM and rise at 4 AM", "Run 5 miles", "Go into a tear gas chamber for two minutes though you feel like dying", and on and on.
If I remember correctly, young christians and older christians were all given the same classes no matter what was said in them. No one was sheltered from anything. So cant agree with you.
I never said there were different classes for younger vs. older. There are clearly different classes for non-members vs. members, and different teachings expected to be complied with by different ages of members.
For instance, "babes," as they are called, are told not to worry about doctrines they don't understand yet, because they're "not ready for that yet." As they are there longer, more and more expectations are piled on, such as attending all the classes, fellowships, personal work, etc. And of course, once you start attending something, it's a sin to stop.
As you remember, Kevin, non-members were invited to any and all classes we could get them too. Let's be fair in all of this destruction.
You're missing my point. What I said above is exactly true. There were different classes designed for members vs. non-members for easier indoctrination.
Non-members were rarely, if ever, invited to come to the public assembly on Sunday. In fact, they used to have a fold-out sign they would put out on Sunday mornings on the street, but I remember there were even discussions about stopping that practice, because walk-ins rarely stayed long.
My 5 year old loves horses, so last night at bedtime I read one of her books to her about horses. Interestingly, it told about how young colts are "broken" to be submissive to a new rider. First, a small framed person will lay on the horse's back. Next a blanket, then a saddle is added, but no rider. Then a bit in the horse's mouth, and eventually, a rider who directs the movements of the horse. It occurred to me how similar the process is to breaking a human being to be controlled by an authoritative church leadership structure.… Read more »
So no, I don't remember non-members being invited to Sunday worship and the accompanying Bible class. Perhaps that was a more common thing than I remember, but if so, few took you up on it.
I'm trying to be completely fair here. I have no desire to falsely accuse anyone of anything. And if there is any destruction going on, it is of extra-Biblical doctrines and the false authority presumptuously assumed by this sect.
May I remind people that when a non-member does come to a mid-week class the class usually switches gears and non-member material is used for the class. Not saying that is right or wrong, just to make a point that when a non-member comes to a mid-week class they would not generally hear a regular mid-week class. I doubt they would hear a rebuke or hear the "finer details" of the church teachings discussed. (they do hear the public confessions and songs which is different than non-member class) When a non-member comes to worship it is explained to them that… Read more »
Anonymous 12:33, that pretty much describes my experience exactly. You said it better than me. 🙂
@Anonymous 12:33 I do recall that to be accurate. I remember sitting through classes and the tone is SO different when a non-member happened to be there.
Also, it is different if you are an adult child non-member vs a regular non-member. If you are an adult child of the CoC attending any of their church sessions, you get the full on deal – rebukings included.
You're right about the Lord's Supper and collection basket….If attending on Sunday, me and my kids were expected to contribute cash but never take the Lord's Supper.
That is exactly true. Some of the preachers or teachers were exceptionally shrewd at making the transition. Others were much more clumsy about it. But if a non-member came to a regular class (outside of the worship) the scheduled study was canceled and the class essentially became a clone of the non-member class. To pretend that that does not happen, and to suggest that they are generally invited to all classes is disingenuous at best.
I remember young Christians being even more converted by the reproofs, seeing the Church was serious about sins in it's midst. Doesn't it make good sense to teach basic principals to non-members when you finally have them in class with the purpose to convert them? Why try to demonize this?
I'm not demonizing anything, I'm just pointing out that it's a technique to hide the church's more bizarre and unscriptural teachings from new or potential members.
There is no evidence for this practice in the first century church.
No evidence of teaching non-members whenever possible? Or no evidence of what you have determined to be 'unscriptural teachings'.
Anonymous 8:18, your attempts to twist my words and obfuscate my points with word games is not helping your cause. You know exactly what I mean…there is no evidence for going from house to house to recruit non-members to a non-member's class, as opposed to simply an open invitation to the public assemblies of the church, whenever and wherever those happened to be.
Interesting. Did you say there is no evidence for going house to house…etc.? Do you believe there is evidence to publicly hold a non-member class?
Anonymous 9:41, I will not play word games and allow you to pull my words out of context like you do the scriptures. I meant exactly what I said, nothing more, nothing less. There is no scriptural evidence that the first century church went door to door to recruit prospects to non-member classes.
To eliminate the possibility of being accused of word play, I have check eight translations on Acts 20:20. They are all pretty much the same in their wording. "I have taught you publicly and from house to house."And then vs.21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord….."(Tyndale,Great Bible,Rheims,KJ,Geneva Bible,Bishops bible,Rv 1881 ASV 1901,and RSV 1946-1960)Where's your problem with knocking on doors or non-members classes?
What I said–again–is that there is no evidence that the first century church knocked on doors from house to house to invite people to a non-member class. I did not say either of these practices were wrong in and of themselves. I am not trying to bind a particular method of evangelism on you or prove yours to be Biblically wrong–rather, it is Biblically unsupported. There's a difference. I believe we have a right to choose methods of evangelism that we think will get the message across in the best way possible. I'm simply pointing out that your technique of… Read more »
You walk away from those doors solid in the Doctrine of Christ. You have the opportunity to teach every belief under the sun and every belief under the sun has heard the first principles of the Gospel of Christ. I wouldn't trade that experience for anything in this world. Not anything. You have a very weak scriptural argument to this subject.
Through this entire conversation, you've missed my point entirely. Maybe I'm just not very good at communicating. I wasn't trying to make a scriptural argument that you can't knock on doors, or that you can't hold a special class for people interested in the first principles of Christ. I was just pointing out the **fact** that the early church did not do cold calls from house to house to invite people to a non-member class. That's not what the scriptures say. Are you disagreeing with that conclusion, or sidestepping it? We can talk all day long about what we think… Read more »
Uncle Kevin I know from looking at this blog and your responses to runaround questions that you are very good at communicating. God has blessed you with that. You are wise in your knowledge of the bible and in your wisdom to not engage in mind games with coc arguers. I have seen it all my life with the coc members, they will run you around, turning things upside down, trying so hard to side track you from the biblical truths that you present to them. Anonymous who ever you are the truth will come to light no matter how… Read more »
Well said, the blogs clearly show who is sincere!
Thank you to Kevin, Matthew,McKenzie, Erin…and more that are sincere.
Walter needs to re-think his motive.
We want to know the truth, and also to prevent others
So far when you try to correct or adjust Kevin's information you receive a correction from him. So I am beginning to doubt the genuineness of his motive for putting this blog together.
Anonymous 12:22, Not sure what you mean by that. Of course I have the right to defend my point of view. And may I also point out that I've given you the ability to present your point of view as well. I think that's pretty generous, since I have yet to see a website publicly outlining the church's official points of view, much less provide a forum for discussion them openly. I've even corrected a few factual errors in good faith that have been pointed out to me as well, and I will continue to do so. However, I have… Read more »
I don't think you should assign bad motives. He appears to be a thinking man, very patient and reasonable, and his love for God really shows. Moreover, he's willing to stand up for the truth according to the Word (instead of the truth according to Merie Weiss teachers/preachers). Something that a lot of us would have liked to have done but were too beat up (so to speak) to do.
Anonymous 1:08, thank you for seeing my heart. I know words on a page sometimes don't convey things adequately.
Anonymous @12:22 – I haven't seen where you have provided information of unfactual posts. What I see is your opinion or your viewpoint, to which Kevin fairly responds. My observation from the CoC is that whatever a leader says, you are expected to follow. It appears that you are expecting that to happen on this page as well. Just because you make a comment doesn't mean your word is going to be absorbed without question or follow-up. And it appears that when you are questioned, you don't know how to respond except to attack the motives of Kevin and this… Read more »
Anonymous at 12:22, not to pile on, but if the "correction" or "adjustment" you provide is inaccurate, then I would expect Kevin would naturally be prudent to correct your facts or at least provide you with his opinion. In fact, Kevin has on several occasions made corrections when presented with errors. But they have been few and far between. If you would be so kind as to provide examples of the supposed corrections and adjustments you purport to have provided then perhaps readers could discern for themselves whether your accusation is correct. But since you have yet to do so,… Read more »
The adjustments are not inaccurate.
Anonymous 7:26, I don't even know what "adjustments" you're referring to. Can you clarify?
That is true. Because there are so many anonymous adjustments to your blog it would be difficult to know what one I added.
Not to sound like a clanging gong, but the obvious solution to your stated problem would be for you to present your name along with your position. That would clearly help. Be Minnie Mouse on this blog if you want to.
And that was I tended for anon@ 8:14
I get it. An anonymous anonymous. Clever. I will consider this, but is it really necessary? Mickey, or Minnie Mouse? yep. even that is anonymous. Perfect.
Since you claim your adjustments aren't accurately portrayed and agree it is difficult to follow your own argument, it only makes sense. That is if you really are seeking to be understood. I am doing my best to follow your point of view or position on these matters and I have no idea what you are talking about. It seems like you are in opposition to most of what is being said here but you aren't clearly pointing out why or what you have to refute.
To address the non-member thing. It is recorded while Gary or Tom was talking about inviting someone to a May or March meeting that "this was not the appropriate venue for non-members" and that they would be discussing topics that are not intended for them to hear yet" Any other church you go to wants to tell you as soon as you will listen what their beliefs are on ANY matter. They don't hide things or wait until you are not a "babe" to tell you that you cannot attend your Mother's funeral because it is in another "religious building."… Read more »
Ten thousand page views. Are you listening? There has to be a reckoning. How long can these facts be swept under the rug? How long will Merie's legacy be defended? When can your brethren have the liberty God gave them? Believe it or not, there are sincere people who love God, people who know your rules are outside God's will – you think you are righteous because you have sacrificed so much and gave your whole life to it. That doesn't make anyone righteous. You're just entrenched in it for so long, instead of fighting for truth and liberty, you… Read more »
Anonymous 8-20 @ 7:03PM, AMEN! Exactly what I've been thinking. God does not take it lightly when people make a mockery of what His son died for. Worse yet, when they have hurt his children in such a deep way that it has resulted in turning multitudes of hearts away from Him. Though they rationalize and excuse their false teaching and unjust behavior that hurt so many, there is no excuse.
Thank you Anonymous 7:03 for that bit of righteous indignation. I think one of the best things to come of this blog is the comments with personal testimonies of the train wrecks the faulty doctrines of the church have caused in people's lives. Perhaps hearing the weight of evidence in such personal terms will bring about a godly sorrow that leads to repentance.
So to understand this fully, your saying these teachers/preachers were trying to clean up their congregations from these perverse sins?
Anonymous, the "defiled bed" included any married couple coming together in ANY position but the one position authorized by the sect. Is this the perverse sin you are referring to? There is no such sin in the Bible. The number of people withdrawn from unscripturally would be in the hundreds. It is not up to us to "clean up" congregations with unscriptural withdrawals. Do the ends justify the means?
No. That's not the perversion I was referring too.
Perhaps you were referring to "uncleanness?" Remember when Simon thought, if Jesus were a true prophet, he would have known this woman was a sinner? The verse implies she was a prostitute. Whatever her sin, would you think the same as Simon? Would you think this perversion should be cast out of our presence? I personally participated in 2 unscriptural withdrawals and I will forever regret the damage I did to those souls. My teachers did not bother to seek these souls out after their unscriptural withdrawals were lifted. I reached out to them but they were both broken souls… Read more »
So are we saying because the church has mishandled these folks that are partakers of masturbation and homosexual acts they are forever grounded in them?
We are not saying anyone is forever grounded. We're saying there were gross abuses rooted in false teaching, with the pretext of keeping the church pure. The misguided penchant for "keeping the church pure" is still alive today, manifesting itself in rules and opinions, such as (but not limited to) sports prohibitions, dress codes, rules on marital sex, compulsory meetings, children forbidden from sitting on their feet, traveling restrictions, rules on making confession and the timing of confessions, confession for jaywalking and traffic violations, 2-part requirement for confession on tardiness to include both confession for being late plus the reason… Read more »
So then the gross abuses and false teachings are found in the 'rules'. So if I turn it around, I can say 1. It's okay for our kids to shower with all the other kids? 2.It's okay for Christians and their children to dress like the world around them 3.marital sex has no limits 4.God isn't first in all things 5. public confession of public sins is oppressive 6.Okay to be late (I thought we obeyed the elders when they set their 'rules') and so on.
Sitting on the foot is not the same as showering. Dress code includes "men cannot wear shorts." Dress code requires dresses for women and ties for men at worship. Marital sex rules (at one time) required withdrawal of fellowship for certain positions not prohibited by scripture. Public confession for traffic violations assumes people in public recognized the violation and the person committing the violation. Confession for being late admits fault – is the double-confession required by scripture?
Be not many masters, for theirs is the greater condemnation.
In my time, we withdrew from Christians if they missed Sunday worship. We considered this a bad example for the rest of the Christians. And if I remember correctly if Christians dressed as you do they would have been barred from entering the worship. And I am a master.
You don't know how I dress. It's interesting how you assume things. I wear coats and ties. The discussion is not how I dress, but whether we believe a woman wearing something other than a dress can offer just as much to God as a woman wearing a dress. You may not be familiar with the sect discussed throughout this blog – there are no elders in the sect. Without elders, how can these rules be imposed upon others.
Elder Scott, I believe you are an imposter. Have you read Matthew 23:10?
My curt reply was to anonymous 10:51. Masters is also translated teachers i.e. RV 1881 ASV 1901 and RSV 1946 1960. And Eph.4:11- verifies that teachers is scriptural. So, no, I am not an imposter based on your incorrect assertion.
But you are a master. And Master Scott's errors do not justify ours.
I am completely confused by this thread. I would like to thank Kevin for the ability to post anonymously because it has given us the freedom to post what is truly on our hearts however a pen name would be just as anonymous and would make it easier to follow the threads of thought that would eliminate Anonymous contending with Anonymous and then a third Anonymous adding their input and then Elder Scott adding to the discussion, then Ryan etc. Can we agree that Elder Scott is using a pen-name to simply be distinguished from the rest of the anonymous… Read more »
JellyFish…. Sorry dear readers, I said I would put JellyFish at the beginning of the last post and then I forgot to do it.
Who calls themselves a Master???? LOL Are you listening to yourself?? Or reading your thoughts out loud, because if you are a member of this sect or whatever it really is. It does not sound like something I want to be a part of. I just joined a congregation recently and was told that I would need to miss work Sunday and Tuesday night, but that is how I feed my children. How are my children going to eat if I am not working? I was also told that I should not let my children play sports. I still don't… Read more »
Confused- I am no longer a member. What I do know is they never give a full disclosure of the rules up front. They're going to say you are a babe so they'll introduce their expectations over time and if you disagree or draw back they're going to say you're going to hell and rebuke you in class. They think their churches are the only place you can be saved in because no other church believes in baptism for the remission of sins, which is not true. Mainstream COC's believe in it. You're confused because some of the things they're… Read more »
Confused-I was raised in the Ak COC. After growing up in that it took me years to come to an understanding of who God really is. He is a personal God, He loves and cares deeply for you, He does not want you in bondage, that is why Christ died for you so you could be set free, He wants to help you get to heaven(imagine that!) He guides you, HIS holy spirit convicts YOU, NOT the church. My children are in sports and it keeps them active and gives them a positive place to want to be. I was… Read more »
I've been thinking about one thing in particular that really bothers me about this church. When I am around them, I had better NEVER say JESUS. If I do, or if one of my children does, it's like you can hear a pin drop. at first it was intimidating. Has anyone else experienced this? And what did you do? A few years ago I felt led to keep the peace and not purposely push the envelope. I still feel like I need to have the right spirit about it and not try to create any extra tension but it's a… Read more »
I had a similar awakening awhile back to the fact that if I don't speak boldy and openly about my faith, I'm letting darkness win out over the light.
We should always be loving and kind, but never shut up just because we get rolled eyes.
Curious, does anyone know why they wouldn't acknowledge Jesus name, I'm asking sincerely, if your following Christ, wouldn't you say "I believe Jesus is the Christ"?
I think it's more of an unspoken culture in their group to use the word "Christ" rather than "Jesus" because the "religious world" (as they call everyone else) uses the word "Jesus" more freely. They don't generally like to do anything that reminds them of "the religious world," even if there's nothing wrong with it.
For instance, I remember several songs ("When The Saints Go Marching In" was one) that they wouldn't sing, because they had been popularized by popular artists.
Anonymous 5:02- I get the same thing around my Mom and younger siblings. When you love the Lord God you want to share what HE is doing in your life! When I share anything with them it was always this awkward quick change the subject kind of thing. You know what? I Love Jesus Christ He is my Lord and Savior and I am not ashamed of it. I have children who love the Lord too and I do not want them to feel like they have to hide that around my family. So it takes an effort but, when… Read more »
That is a different take than I had posted yesterday Erin 🙂 Love your approach and boldness 🙂
I remember seeing the word "wretch" crossed out in the song Amazing Grace in a song book in the sect (… that saved a wretch like me!). I was shocked they did that considering Revelation 3:17 (KJV) 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:" Jesus was speaking to Christians by the way. Also, the song refers to "…that saved a wretch like me?" I know for certain I needed to be baptized and saved because I… Read more »
I remember those changes to songs as well. Of course, the lyrics of Amazing Grace are even more appropriate considering it was written by a former slave ship owner, John Newton, who later became a believer. He saw himself as a "wretch" who was saved by the grace of God. I never understood the "mangled" word being crossed out. That always seemed bizarre to me, because the degree of injury to be considered "mangled" is so subjective. All this strikes me as straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel (Matthew 23:24). We have to be deadly accurate on the… Read more »
I personally feel convicted that this "Elder Walter Scott" has come onto this blog not to find truth, not to reveal truth but to cause confusion. With that being said I believe the "accuser of brethren" Satin is using him to bring confusion and to accuse. Therefore to engage in a conversation with him would be to cast my pearls before swine.
Kevin, did you take this discussion somewhere else? It died all of a sudden. Just sayin.
Nope, just working hard and haven't had time to do any new writing. 🙂
But what I find interesting is absolutely no one is writing. pro or con. Are you the spark that ignites the action?
I don't think I was ever the spark igniting anything. I started writing what God put on my heart, and others who were hungry for this information took it up and spread the word.
I pray that the people have been positively impacted by the words they've read here and will seek a genuine relationship with God as a result.
I have also felt the sting of the Kangaroo court you speak of and know if I could have had a GOOD attorney I could have beat the rap.
Fortunately, we DO have a good attorney. 🙂 Jesus is the best attorney we could possibly have to advocate before God on our behalf: 1 John 2:1 – But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 1 Timothy 2:5 – For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus Isaiah 9:6 – For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor… Don't need to fear what… Read more »
I was listening to the talk made by Tom Cornforth entitled. "Don't Forget Them In The Valley" dated 3/5/08. This whole talk is based upon not forgetting them that are behind and/or need help in the church. The whole talk is very good, but there is one thing that he mentions that I believe both contradicts and condemns his talk and the way I have seen other brethren act towards each other. What he states in his talk is, "I (speaking of himself) have a difficulty doing random acts of kindness". He goes on to state that his wife will… Read more »
This is a huge problem with works-based theologies like Stanton's. If the emphasis is on what you *do*, then we humans look at *doing* as obedience, regardless of what the condition of the heart looks like. In my view, we love Him because He first loved us. Because He loved us, we then act out of gratefulness and show God's love to others. This simple mind-change in how we look at love and works makes *all* the difference, because it makes our love and compassion spill out from the overflowing of our hearts, not out of a sense of duty.… Read more »
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. The commandments is our law and when we break that law we sin. part of the law is that we help and take care of each other as expressed in Matt. 25:31-46. We are going to be judged on that day by what we did and/or didn't do for each other. John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been… Read more »
Yes. I would emphasize that the "Love" part is the command, and the good works we do for our brothers, or the needy on the street, or the orphans in the foster care system, or whatever, are what proceeds out of it. This is a very important distinction, because it's possible for someone to make a "love list" of all things a loving person ought to do, then set out to instruct people to do those things. But the doing of those things without the love isn't what God wants. To illustrate this point, one could go through all the… Read more »
I was only referring to the needs of our brethren, but I do agree with you in doing these things more out of responsibility more than or no love behind it. The Jews did the same.
Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Excellent verse on this point. Israel sought to measure up to the "law of righteousness" but did not do so from the heart, but "by the works of the law." Perfect adherence to law is command-keeping but is not necessarily a heart patterned after God's own heart. We can have a perfect church attendance record and look down our noses at our brethren and thus be sinning. Meanwhile, another brother may not have perfect church attendance, but compares himself humbly to his brethren. Which of these is more accepted before God? I say the one whose heart is more like… Read more »
One of the hardest things to see in yourself is indifference and that is very dangerous in Christianity.
Yes you are correct in proverbs 24:11-12 it speaks about indifference and how God see's it; and also in mans law the precept is called "depraved indifference" and is used to prove intent in murder cases. After a person is shot the first call should be to paramedic's for help the police do this: shoot them when necessary then help them to live it is called natural affection. Murders will shoot then not call for help. Ezekiel 3:15-21 also speaks on the responsibility of the watchman to warn against sin whether the people listen to you or not. To withhold… Read more »
Lighten up on William would you please! I happen to know through personal experience that he can do healings. I used to suffer terribly from insomnia and after hearing just five minutes of one of Williams sermons my insomnia was cured. I felt the insomnia leaving me about the five minute mark of his sermon; so lighten up would ya?
Does anyone know where I can find a recording by Tom Cornforth on this blog? Unable to find it.
And does anyone know if the Stanton Churches of Christ are growing? Any baptisms? Or new churches planted?
Definitely they are not. They are playing musical chairs where they send Christians from one congregation to another congregation where they get the same results as always. They blame it on the world, and say they are not growing because the world is so bad. Nonsense. They baptized 3,000 people in one day in Acts 2 when the worlds population was far smaller than today, and they were pagans, where they worshipped Aphrodite by going into her temple and committing fornication with harlots. Also, the Roman citizens, would go into the Colisseum and watch gladiators murder each other. Today, we… Read more »
Two things that I have seen that hinder them is that most of the children are not becoming Christians and how they are dealing with people at the doors. I have seen a lot of Christians offend them at the doors by challenging their denominations than try to interest in the scriptures.
Yes, Sir, Lynn, most of the children do not become christians. The percentage is shockingly low. It is around 10% if that. You would think if you had the truth, and you shielded your children from the world, and you were so loving and kind that your children would be beating the doors down to get baptized. It's a little odd that is not happening. Never will as long as they continue teaching and behaving as they do. You can fool all the people some of the time, you can fool some of the people all the time, but you… Read more »
TC did a talk labeled, "Don't Forget Them In The Valley". This was an exhortation of not leaving those behind who are in need. Not financially, but spiritually and in understanding. Same person also started a volunteer class to help those who have missed classes and/or are behind in understanding. Yet, there is still so much depravity getting necessary spiritual help and support. I did refuse to go to counsel because of how certain preacher/teachers both dealt with some people that would counsel and/or what they would do with what you counseled about. It was said the DC lost a… Read more »
https://www.stantonblog.com/2015/01/a-jesus-take-wheel-kind-of-faith.html
Thank you Wendy. What is wrong with Tom anyway? He sounds like a very sick man.
Sorry but I just have to say this. From the outside looking/listening what I hear is a rambling on of a delirious man He sounds like someone who's had too much to drink. The number of times he repeats the phrase "You Know" is staggering. What poor innocents and /or ignorant followers, can listen to these sorts of lectures, and give their lives too a rambling fool. I can not understand that "faith in a forgery" as an intelligent decision for anyone to make, who has reasonable judgement. Listen for those "You Knows" they are to assimilate "You" into his… Read more »
For all of the doctrinal differences I have with TC, he is a good man. He raised nine children, at last count eight of whom were Christians, has a stable committed marriage with a happy wife, and has lived a godly life. He is one of the main reasons I joined, because I saw how happy his children and family were, and because he has a heart. Far be it from me to condemn a man who has put God first in his life, whatever honest errors he may make.
Martin Luther, I felt the same way about TC for many years. See, I met him when he was still in Mobile, Alabama. He and his wife went through some pretty bad oppression there, and came out of it very strong. I also had many dealings with him when I was a teacher, I did a lot of counselling with him. He was a great help, and very encouraging.But when I saw how he dealt with that Christian from Alaska and the deceit that was used, I started to see another side to TC. He may have truly felt it… Read more »
DWC was idolized in Phoenix by several of the brethren who knew her personally. DWC and her husband TJC stopped off in Phoenix on their way to a private meeting with GP in Spring Valley, just before their rejection (to explain their behavior presumably.) They were treated as rock stars with many of the brethren fawning over them. There was an informal meeting by the women of Phoenix to ask her judgement on appropriate dress for teenage girls and young ladies. During the discussion one young mom had to leave to get her child from babysitting. After the discussion and… Read more »
When TC came and counseled with me and my teachers he preferred to listen to them and I was thrown under the bus. He basically called me a busybody. I looked to my brethren for support in my infirmities and they treated me like I was a sinner for not pushing the flesh hard enough. TC actually compared me to DWC. That really hurt. I was asking the brethren not to shake my hand so hard as it hurt my spine and the preacher from the south said that I was being rude about it. My wife and kids disagreed… Read more »
Their behavior is predictable: An ego drive can run the gamut from making a joke at someone else expense to buying something we can't afford. In essence, we do something so that we appear in a certain way to others. When we are driven by ego, we do things that project the "right" image, and we become consumed with power, control, and respect, things that many value as an end in themselves, and not as a means to something more meaningful. Our choice are then not based on what is good, but rather on what makes us look good. When… Read more »
Funny, I feel like I am in Harry Potter and we are talking about Voldemort, calling him "He who must not be named". As soon as I heard J.K. Rowling say Dumbledore was homosexual, my Harry Potter series found a new home in the town landfill:). I do agree Debby, TC is tremendously charismatic and likeable, and he appears to have a blameless life. He is too stern in areas, but then, the church has always been deathly afraid of being too soft on sin like Esau, so they err like the Pharisees, by being too hard on it. I… Read more »
Also, very much agree that we must stand on the authority of the Bible and not on men who mistakenly teach it. There are too many who are too afraid to oppose unscriptural teachings because they value friendships with people too much. Is it lonely and difficult to speak up? YES! But, I'd rather be lonely now than have to explain to God why I suffered from the fear of man, and was a man-pleaser. It is very humorous to watch how brethren change, anonymous @ 7:56. The gospel is whatever the teacher says. I'm not even sure why anyone… Read more »
Lynn, I agree Tom is a great preacher, I also know it is futile to try to change a persons behavior toward me. I must be to them what I want them to be to me. We must be the change we wish to see in the world. Ultimately, on judgement day, I am not going to be judged on how others harmed me or did not do good to me, but on what I did to others.
Amen anonymous at 6:34!
Control freak: knock knock
Person at the door: who's their?
Control freak: control freak, now you say control freak who?
" And the less control people have over themselves, the more they try and control the lives of others. They need to be in charge of something, and since they can't get traction in their own lives, they seek to do it through influencing the lives of others." Beautifully said.
People who follow their conscience are outwardly focused on others and how they can best help others. People who follow their conscience are very careful not to annoy, insult or offend others. People who follow their conscience walk in love towards both themselves and others; a merciful man doeth good to his own soul. Lust is the opposite of love. Lust is all about me, me, me, and taking from others. Love is about you and sharing/ giving to others. The teachers in the COC are completely off center walking after their arrogance and not after the conscience. The examples… Read more »
I'm not saying this to blow my own horn, but this is the way I see how to handle things. We had a preacher, and his wife, who had been in for over 10 years, had his wife fall away and then, with problems of his own, was asked to step down and he eventually fell away. When his wife fell away I called him and invited him out to dinner so I could console him and be a positive light in his life in his time of need. After he was asked to step down my family and his… Read more »
Martin Luther
Even GP made the statement that only Christians shoot their wounded. That was my whole problem.
Love is that which gives the most and asks for the least in return, Anonymous @7:54, well said. Also the people who need love the most, deserve it the least. And it is a sign of love to constantly seek to serve others, and to stop selfishly pursuing ones own pride or lusts. Personally, I know many of my problems come when I am discontent, and do not believe in God's promises. This dissatisfaction leads to disaffection, which reduces courage and bravery to sin, and leads to falls. I completely understand why the first two sins listed in Revelations for… Read more »
Yes, only christians shoot their wounded. We are supposed to be healing them, not wounding them further. Of all the commandments the greatest was love. Most of the sins, particularly the problems the church has with pornography, is a direct result of not having healthy relationships that are loving and close. When you have a loving relationship, you see how fake, false, and artificial sin really is. Pretty tragic that when people were isolated and this led them to sin with lust, the church punished it with even more isolation, thus taking a fire and making it a wildfire. The… Read more »
Also C.S. Lewis who wrote the fantastic books I loved so much as a child, "The Chronicles of Narnia", also wrote the Great Divorce, but how he saw overcoming lust is a whole lot different from our church. He has a positive outcome, our church has a hopeless one. I saw coming towards us a Ghost who carried something on his shoulder. Like all the Ghosts, he was unsubstantial, but they differed from one another as smokes differ. Some had been whitish; this one was dark and oily. What sat on his shoulder was a little red lizard, and it… Read more »
“Honestly, I don’t think there’s the slightest necessity for that. I’m sure I shall be able to keep it in order now. I think the gradual process would be far better than killing it.” “The gradual process is of no use at all.” “Don’t you think so? Well, I’ll think over what you’ve said very carefully. I honestly will. In fact I’d let you kill it now, but as a matter of fact I’m not feeling frightfully well to-day. It would be silly to do it now. I’d need to be in good health for the operation. Some other day,… Read more »
Next moment the Ghost gave a scream of agony such as I never heard on Earth. The Burning One closed his crimson grip on the reptile: twisted it, while it bit and writhed, and then flung it, broken backed, on the turf. “Ow! That’s done for me,” gasped the Ghost, reeling backwards. For a moment I could make out nothing distinctly. Then I saw, between me and the nearest bush, unmistakably solid but growing every moment solider, the upper arm and the shoulder of a man. Then, brighter still and stronger, the legs and hands. The neck and golden head… Read more »
Desire is wonderful, God created it to be enjoyed in a marriage between a couple. When confined there, it is like a fire in the fireplace, safe, and giving comfort and warmth to all around it. When it is not in a marriage, it becomes like a raging wildfire, causing unpredictable and devastating damage. I am glad we can turn to God when a person deals with lust, his mercy is eternal, and he justly punishes. The church has little to no mercy, and is draconian, severe, harsh, and cruel. God is actually more against self righteous pride than he… Read more »
Knowledge is power, and why didn't we ever hear anything like this in church? I'll tell you why, it's easier to say if you do this you will lose your mind, than it is to actually research exactly what happens and what the cure is.
Neurons that fire together, wire together. Just like other addictive substances, porn floods the brain with dopamine. That rush of brain chemicals happening over and over again rewires the brain’s reward pathway ultimately changing the make up of the viewer’s brain. This can result in an increased appetite for porn. Yep, you read that right. Porn physically changes your brain. One of the most exciting developments in our understanding of the brain in the last two decades is the discovery of something called neuroplasticity, “neuro” meaning brain and “plasticity” meaning changeability. In other words, scientists have discovered that your brain… Read more »
If you’re wondering what a neuron is and why it’s on fire, here’s what that means. A neuron is a brain cell, and when brain cells get activated at the same time by something you see or hear or smell or whatever, they release chemicals that help strengthen the connection between those neurons. [3] For example, when you eat something delicious, your brain releases dopamine, a chemical that makes you feel good. [4] Or if you hold hands with someone you care about, your brain releases a chemical called oxytocin, which helps you bond with people. [5] So if every… Read more »
As a frequent porn user’s brain acclimates to the new levels of dopamine flooding through it, regular activities that would normally set off a burst of dopamine and make the person feel happy aren’t strong enough to register much anymore, leaving the user feeling down or uneasy whenever they go for a while without looking at porn. [11] That’s one reason why pornography can be so addictive. [12] (See Porn is Addictive) Once addiction sets in, the user has a whole new set of problems, because addiction damages the part of the brain that helps you think things through to… Read more »
But to the intellectually lazy, it is much easier and simpler to just say, "you're going to lose your mind". Where does it say that in the Bible? Look at all the damage slothfulness has caused in the church. Because people didn't want to keep pressing for answers, they wanted to just jump to a conclusion, and keep repeating it, and didn't worry about who it might harm, or how it had no solutions. Being a MOTO man is not a good christians. Being a Master of the Obvious is quite easy, finding out what makes things work and finding… Read more »
Lynn and Martin Luther, I am so glad to hear you say that you both were loving and kind to RL..And that he was the same way too.I knew him in Portland when he was a new He called me when I was in Florida, to let me know they were getting married!
I am so glad that he remained a good man, and didn't let the Stanton group change him in a bad way.
Thanks so much for your kindness!
Part of my post above didn't come through! I knew him when he was a new Christian, and I knew his wife before and after she became a Christian!
What I did for RL I would do for any Christian as they are the children of God. I love God, so I love them. What I did is not what the church does for its' members. They expect the sick to call out to their brethren. It is taught that you shouldn't expect support from your fellow brethren. When one is having difficulties, dealing with infirmities, dealing with sick children, or whatever it is that you are the one that is to reach out to your brethren and to ask it from them is being selfish. Look how this… Read more »
Good points Lynn. Found an Arabic proverb on who is a teacher and who isnt.
He that knows not,
and knows not that he knows not
is a fool.
Shun him
He that knows not,
and knows that he knows not
is a pupil.
Teach him.
He that knows,
and knows not that he knows
is asleep
Wake him.
He that knows,
and knows that he knows
is a teacher.
Follow him
So one of the intimidation tactics I had to deal with a couple years ago was when we had an older preacher and his wife transfer to our congregation. I had had my baby just a few weeks before. They didn't really know me well yet and I later felt like they should at least get to know me well before demanding stuff. Anyway, during a fellowship I was sitting alone in a living room and they came to talk to me about starting the personal work soon. I must have been only a few weeks after birth. They said… Read more »
Good for you. Heeding your conscience. Makes me consider how many times I should've listened to mine and didn't.
I too say – good for you! The church definitely has, shall I say, "policies" that are expected to be followed such as restarting personal work 6 weeks after having a baby. Binding a personal work schedule (I believe it's once a week for mothers, twice a week for single women, twice a week for men) is unscriptural as are other "policies". So often the only reason given for a policy is "this is how it's done in such-and-such a place" or "I was always taught this". So many "policies"; so little personal decision making. What's good for one is… Read more »
The structuring of your daily activities is called "doing your thinking for you" and is practiced by many religions. Members are kept so busy that they do not have time to stop and question "why are we doing this?" It is very effective method called milieu control (controlling the environment) and is talked about by Robert J Lifton in his 1951 book Thought reform and the psychology of totalism: chinese brainwashing techniques.
Agree…the personal work can vary depending on location.
Will look up milieu control. Reminds me of how North Korea functions too.
One of the fear tactics of the Stanton 'churches' that I'm finding is that they train you to disregard your "gut feelings"- your God given intuition. They use Jeremiah 17:9.In doing this, they cause followers to disregard their heart/emotions. This makes easy followers who don't question when judgements don't sit right with them. I look back and consider times I went along when a teacher took a member aside who was in trouble. One time a teacher accused a woman of laughing during non-member class. The woman denied it, but the teacher drove it so hard that the woman conceded… Read more »
As we struggle to overcome the darkness that is currently the SCOC we will find many things wrong both with the Merie sect and with ourselves. I sat silent many times because of the sheer intimidation put out by the leaders; I have been threatened many times with withdrawal and once with mark and avoid, all by people who were incredible wicked in their own lives. When I found out about the felony child abuse, the pure laziness of the men chosen to be preachers, how deeply in debt to credit cards most members were I said it would be… Read more »
Well for the record, I went WITH my conscience most of the time but here's the catch: my kids hardly got the taste of bitterness in their innocence because we managed to do quite a bit against. They got to go to the movies, travel, entire church bday parties, phones as older teens, etc. They are naive to how much I had to hear about it and just not say anything. So I'm "crazy" for leaving the one true church. Now I have to wait and pray that without me there as a buffer between them and counsel they will… Read more »
One of the main challenges I've seen in parenting is that we start the process when we're young and inexperienced, and grow in knowledge, wisdom, and experience over time. Yet the parenting, church, and faith decisions we make early on have lasting effects, and sometimes are not easily reversed later in life. While I recognized SCOC's pitfalls and successfully set boundaries and avoided them for my kids, I can see that I've made other mistakes and/or misjudgments along the way. I did them in good faith, but nevertheless, there are things I'd do differently now with the benefit of hindsight.… Read more »
Well seeking please don't stop with your walk with God because you made the wise decision to leave an abusive and dead church. Please continue to study and seek out Godly understandings and then share them with the rest of us. I left the SCOC in 2002 and have never regretted it. I use to like watching violent movies, one man verse the world type of movies and wondered why. I don't harbor violent fantasies, as violence is deplorable to a person able to reason their way through problems; so I asked God one day "why do I enjoy these… Read more »
Excellent advice. It's great to see more and more people step in with good, godly, biblical advice.
I would love to see more and more commenters post under their real name—of course, in their own time. The benefit is that when people use their real name, their former friends and brothers in the SCOC can see their example and be spurred on to love and good works by a real person—someone other than an anonymous commenter.
I'm almost there, Kevin. Surprisingly I am finding that my issue is more that when others search for my name they may find that I was involved with this sect. It has its own shame. To anon 1:37: years ago I was withdrawn from for continuing to have a relationship with my then-husband because the church had deemed our marriage unscriptural. I left the church AND I left God and just went back into sin (divorce still happened). NOT THIS TIME. Then I allowed MERIE'S ONE TRUE CHURCH DOCTRINE to cause despair and to feel like I could find God… Read more »
Consider this; the current leader is dominating and controlling over the entire SCOC, calling himself a "control freak." The constant witch hunts is a clear indication of paranoia in the leader. The church has an extensive spy network where every member is required to watch and inform on each other to the local leaders. Some members act as enforcers and have threatened unruly members with physical violence; telling them "I will get real angry with you" through clenched teeth and with balled up fists, or "when I was in the Marine Corps I would have no problem killing people". These… Read more »
You are silly. There are problems with this brotherhood but you really are living in another world. Killing? Physical violence? What a joke.
Anon 7:24, some people's experiences have been more extreme than others. I never saw physical threats or intimidation, myself. What the above commenter says is that "God is not going to kill you if you leave an abusive and dead church." This is a staple teaching of SCOC, that God will strike dead people who leave the cult. This is itself relying on fear and intimidation to keep people in.
Kevin; I'm referring to the comments of the threat of Christians administering physical violence to anyone that gets out of line. i.e. "I have no problem killing people" etc. Lets keep this real so it stays believable.
Ever hear of Steve Shaw? He was fired because his fellow employee's feared workplace violence with his uncontrollable temper. Ever meet Ted Schmidt, USMC? Both are very dangerous men because they have no boundaries upon their temper.
There is a book that talks about a man who had another man killed for thirty pieces of silver, ever hear of it? Murder has been around since day one of Christianity, people do go bad and do great evil while still members of the church. Most people have a door, a gate, in their minds that stops thoughts and emotions from turning into actions it is called the conscience. Some people destroy their conscience and have no internal restraints and have to be restrained externally usually in the form of prison walls. Keep it real Christians do go bad,… Read more »
I dont understand. I bailed out of this group years ago and am not afraid to say my name. Jim.
I dont know why you all are so afraid to use your name. If you hate this group so much say so with your name. Being a coward is not being a christian. Say who you are and let this group know you cant take anymore. I'll wait for the lame excuses.
Jim you seem to have a very negative outlook is there something bothering you?
Consider this in Revelations 12:15-17 how the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood, and how the earth helped the woman and opened her mouth and swallowed up the flood, and the serpent was wroth and went to make war with the faithful and we see an example of this in Exodus 14 when Satan, in the persona of Pharaoh, sent out a flood, in the form of the Egyptian army after God's people, and the earth, in the form of the red sea did swallow up Satan's flood, and again we see this in Mathew 2:16… Read more »
As much as I miss the fellowships, meetings, and being there with those brethren who truly do love God and their brethren, it is always going to be in the back of my mind that I know that I can't get fair counsel, judgements, nor support from the leaders who see these things as beneath them. I say it that way because their part in the oppression in these congregations is that they resort to belittling and making constant class and pulpit assertions that you need to be pushing the flesh and not looking for your brethren in the spiritual… Read more »
Hi Donna, I had been at a few meetings that you were at through the years. Totally agree with I'll call it for me anyways going against my conscience. Manpleasing and manfearing I'd say would be their as well. Makes me also wonder going back to what took place in Des Moines in 2001 with the withdrawal attempt and the threats if you objected you'd be withdrawn from how that sat with members consciences. If you didn't agree you'd have to go against your conscience. Curious if you are able to share what the charges were. I can't remember. I'd… Read more »
Situation came up with a member of the cult correcting there child for something they said which was inappropriate. One of the first words out of there mouth was God could strike you dead for saying that. My quick counter was typical Merie cult saying. Planting fear and intimidation into your child. Please you all cult members need to be fearing every second you continue in such an evil religion.
I thought God knew the time and place we're all going to die so if he was struck dead I guess it was his time to go LOL.. Just stupid
Anon 2:10 Exactly. This fear and intimidation starts young with the children as well. Had to laugh listening to the hypocrite preacher in Portland preaching one day with a rare new member in the audience. MM had always shared how when he joined the cult at 18 or so fresh out of HS. How he figured if you couldn’t beat the church you may as well join them. So he did. But with this new member he was sharing how the world had chewed him up and spit him out. That there was nothing out there in the world for… Read more »
18 whole years lol.. Ok then . Lol
Craig I cannot imagine anyone telling their child that….what is the matter with these people?
This way of living and fearing God is part of the SCOC culture. I remember a story told over and over again of a Christian's son, I believe from the Denver (?) Congregation who got struck by lightening. Supposedly for disrespecting parents, being a disobedient teenager, etc Us kids were terrified of lightening. Oh yeah, and of birds. Lol birds plucking out your eyeballs or something to that effect. I can't remember the backstory to that fear though..
A woman in the church allowed her young child (about 5 – 10 years old) stay home with his grandparents during a Sunday evening class. While his mother was at class the son was hit by a car and died. This was said to have happened because she allowed her son to miss class.
Anon 8:02 oh my that’s horrible what happened. But really. Sunday class for one is not commanded by God. Certainly not for the child. Another fear and intimidation tactic by the cult. The teacher in Portland ST children missed numerous classes throughout the years to participate in sports and to spend time with her husbands parents during certain holidays. Hmm nothing ever happened to them. Oh that’s right her husband is a nonmember so that makes it all right Lol. By her wonderful example in 20+ years her husband has never attended s class and her children get to participate… Read more »
What part of the Bible makes them think that they have the right to say anything of what God would or would not do… as an adult in the church none of this stuff would scare me.. But as for the kids being raised in the church it's wrong.. That's why I would never allow my grandson to go into this church. I would fight for custody and would probably end up with custody after the courts knew about this church and their ways. All they do is cause mental problems for these kids. But they're too ignorant to understand… Read more »
Anon 9:37. Good for you protect your grandson. Problem is with the members they hear it over and over and over it brainwashes them. Then they teach it. Tell a lie as you read in Acts 5 as Ananias and Sapphira and you too could be struck dead. The very one preaching it MM a known liar who lied about me publicly hasn’t been struck dead. It’s all very disturbing. The children are taught all the stories that will provoke fear into them in the early age children classes.
Phobia indoctrination starts on day one. I was told many stories of how members left and got cursed for example: one had a nail gun go off and go through his head, another was fallen away and somehow got run over by his own truck while he was working on it, and on and on and on. There was no way to prove any of these stories true or false you were just expected to take it on faith. One story was about a 1975 airplane crash where a 727 crashewd and 113 people and somehow Satan was behind it,… Read more »
Anon 7:03I would not want to have a mind that could even live with that type of fear. I live in peace. And I'm happy about that. I agree with you. I had a member tell me one time that God has us written down in the his book and knows when it's our time to die and how we're going to die. So if that is completely true nobody should say anything about why somebody died because it was all pre-planned anyway. But then the member went to say but God can change his mind. Like they know LOL.… Read more »
Anon 9:31. It’s being done. They hear it taught all the time. They also apply it to there children. Go back to the founder of the cult. Merie Weiss and how her mind worked and what she instilled in her blind followers such as GP, PP, KS, TC and many others. It’s part of there thinking. Fear and intimidation.
Craig, your family sits in the church and lets him lie about you or form opinions that are not true? Or is this just done within the head honcho group? I'm trying to remember what one member in the church said about you. I don't want to miss quote. When they did mention it I was on a bunch of different subjects at the same time. But I do remember just laughing at the excuse they made. This was about the time you came onto the blog but I just can't remember the exact words. And as far as custody… Read more »
Anon 1:10. Are you saying you are still in the church and reading this blog? How could you stay in after reading this or let anyone close to you be in it?.
Anon 1;24
No, I'm not still in the church. I'm waiting for the day the church self-destructs. I talk to some that are still in. Fortunately for this blog I'm able to keep my family out
Good for you Anon 513. Glad you're out n actively working to keep your family out of it too. Surely y'all have heard about the rebellious teen who stuck his head out of a car n was decapitated? My kids were told that one. I think it happened in California.But lest we forget how they will use even the most innocent to instill fear… When little Idaho boy drowned a few years ago the children were being taught in class that following Sunday that it happened because he was disobedient. True. I was shocked when I heard this and I… Read more »
Anon 8:11 yes both those tragedies in Vallejo and Boise were highlighted and talked about in Portland. They do not understand time and chance happens to them as well as none of the cult members have God. The mother of the Vallejo teen and parents of the Boise child are wonderful people. So sad these tragedies took place and absolutely despicable whom ever brings these tragic incidents up to instill fear and intimidation need to be ashamed of themselves.
Anon 1:10 Hmm not sure which lie you are referring to. I need to get my story up eventually. But it has been told to me by others who I collaborate with that MM is a known liar and he has lied to the congregation concerning myself saying I said something that I never said. Telling the Portland congregation that I said the church was on a witchhunt as MM wanted to put a device on my computer to see what one of my children had done on my computer. Which was unnecessary as the child admitted it and I… Read more »
Oh for pitty sakes. If he's using the excuse that he's part of the church for that lie then I guess maybe he'd better share everything with the church shouldn't he since they are all one lol lol lol.. That's funny . He really is horrible though as he wants to dig and dig and keep digging. That's why I said he reminds me of my little old nosy neighbor.. I watched him do his digging and I laughed to myself.. I honestly laughed to myself outloud one time. What the member in the church told me was that you… Read more »
And also Craig, if you misunderstood me, What I meant is does your family and children sit back and let him tell lies about you. Or does he only talk to the bigwigs when he flaps his Yap about you.. That's what I meant
But Craig I don't know what situation that was over either. It was just mentioned when you had left the church for whatever reason. And you know with him being such a busybody that he is absolutely on here reading and he'd be pretty stunned to know that he has members that are telling non-members the doings of the church lol at least I get to giggle about that LOL
No worries. Do not give this preacher ? Any more time in your brain or thoughts. He is not really a preacher just thinks he is so not worth another moment of your time. It is history! Live for today and tomorrow as it does not matter what M M says as he is a false teacher/preacher or a wolf in sheeps clothing and if he is reading the blog so be it. I personally hope he is…and hope the the rest of the big shots are also. Really they are not big at all…they are frauds. Remember they are… Read more »
Craig, one of the teachers in Des Moines had fallen away many years ago, while she was out, her grandson (4 or 5) was murdered by a babysitter by banging his head on the floor I believe. This woman believed this happened to her grandson because she was fallen away, so she went back to Merie’s “church”. It was tragic what happened to her grandson, but even more tragic to believe that God would allow such a thing because she wasn’t in the “One True church”. These people do not know what it means to be loved by God or… Read more »
Donna, wow that’s horrible. But that is exactly what they want. To instill fear and intimidate members so they will not fall away and those that do will have that in there minds so when a hideous crime such as mentioned it is the consequence for falling away. Donna, you’ve heard I’m sure numerous times even those in this assembly not all of us will make it to heaven. I heard 1/3 will make it and I believe 1/2 as well. So again the constant instilling fear and intimidation into members. I’m quite certain many would leave the cult if… Read more »
Craig, they will control your wife. I had a member trying to convince me of all the lies on this blog or that the things that are true we should forgive. Ha and HA. Those are the members that are puppets and refuse to read it. That is the only reason they withdrew from you. They want to silence you as much as they can on their end. They will go to manipulating extremes to control your wife. I've watched this happen to me. But I got a kick out of how well they thought they had control over me.… Read more »
Anon 5:46. No doubt they will all by tactics of fear and intimidation. I agree with all you said. Good for you let them think they have the control. I do apologize for the name calling. He is what he is but I shouldn’t name call. And by saying lit him up I mean give him a mouthful of words and let him know what he truly is and what he has done. Just for clarification.
Anon 11:20 okay I think I got it. I got wet in the cult in 1997. I doubted my baptism throughout the 20 years I was in off and on. Doubting as much as I did should’ve been a big red flag. Never should’ve shared, preached or taught nonmember classes etc. but as all the members of the cult I was deceived as well. I sat myself down from all responsibilities in April of 2015 and what a relief it was being spared from hearing MM constant murmuring of other members. Horrible example he is. Anyways December of 2016 I… Read more »
Hey Craig a lot of what you say reminds me of my own experience with my cult member ex. Although I was never interested and only attended one non-member meeting I went through their destruction of my family. Your wife will not speak to your questions about he cult. That's a key factor that you should understand that you have already lost her to their brain washing. She is AFRAID to speak to you, FEARs their words of intimidation and has lost her own will/mind to those fears. I never experienced such a fear from mere words of someone, unless… Read more »
I hear KF loud and clear. I have someone in the church who's mind is shot. They however listen to music, get on the computer and watch TV LOL LOL Have you showed your kids the blog Craig? I printed it out (and still do as more gets added) and hand it to my kids so they don't miss anything lol. They are truly sickened. Even they understand why the church threatens people not to read this.
I think it is sad the way you describe marriage KF. And it does sound as if the cult has really broken your heart. Everyone’s marriage is between two people and God and only the couple knows what goes on in their marriage. There can be some rough patches they go through but still stay together for a variety of reasons. You sound bitter because you have been hurt and have not healed that hurt so I don’t think you should be giving out marriage counseling. Actually none of us should but instead share our story and thoughts about the… Read more »
Craig, while I sympathize with KF's experiences, I certainly would never condone divorce. Fight for your wife and family. At least you are fully aware of what is going on so you can tackle it. You are the father. Bring up issues within the cult to your children at appropriate times. Tell them the truth. Leave your computers and phones bookmarked to this site. Print out Merie's history of withdrawal and rules from here. Print out other people's story and leave them in the bathroom. Whatever it takes without fighting about it. Bring issues you've read here when any doubt… Read more »
A wife and husband should be able to discuss anything, especially what they see on the internet on a Blog.. But no, the church wants to control that 100%.. It would be hard for me to deal with my other half in life over that with them being controlled by the church on what they can and cannot talk about with a husband/wife.. Because they do do this.. They tried it on me all the time and I made sure I did the exact opposite LOL I don't think it would be easy at all.. That would not be easy… Read more »
Unless the non-Cult member spouse has good income. Believe me , they would have tried harder much earlier,to split us apart if I had not had the income they wanted to get at. There is nothing in this cult that would make your family stronger.They are like leeches, attaching themselves to feed on the weak until they have no more use of them. As the cult falls apart they will feed on each other. I suspect that is beginning to occur since they have disappeared from trying to counter the Anti-Cult views on this blog.
I believe this blog is ordained and blessed by God; Kevin is the right person at the right time to be an instrument of His will, and to expose this cult for what it is: a false and destructive group who have twisted bible scripture to benefit the oppressive few who hold power and sway over mentally-enslaved sheep who have become trapped under their control. But critical mass is rapidly approaching, and this group will implode soon enough under the weight of its own corruption.
Start looking for a Real Job GP
Your ruse is ending
Oh And It's "D" Day today when so many died for your sins GP. Think of what a shame and a sham you are to present yourself as worthy of respect. Don't bother to repent . you are not worthy of forgiveness. Karma is coming quickly. Choke on your own words.
So they are still reading the blog! And why you do not want the congregations reading this again? Remind me please!
The bigwigs are reading this blog. And as I've mentioned before I do know a few members who are reading it. And I cannot go into why they are still in the church besides for family reasons. BIGWIGS are way too nosy to ever stay away from this. They are on a need-to-know basis. Just like PP deleting her Facebook the last time it was mentioned on here that she was still on Facebook. When I was in the church I constantly had one preacher always telling me "let me know what they say let me know what they say"… Read more »
Anon1:45 let me know what they say. Heard that a lot with Portland’s preacher MM. He’d give his counsel such as tell your wife this, let me know what she says in return.
Craig, does your wife think that that's okay when he does such a thing of wanting you to tattle on her on what she said? I'm sorry what this is doing to you. I can feel all of your pain. The church ripped apart my family completely. Unfortunately the pain that I have will never go away. I believe that kids are sneaky and curious and they will eventually read the blog if they haven't already. They just have to find the right time and place to be able to do such a thing. So let's hope the younger kids… Read more »
Also I would love to see updated stats of the states that are reading this blog. But I know Kevin is a busy busy man
Anon 8:55 I’m sure as anyone you do not want your every word repeated. I would never tell her that I repeated her words nor would I tell MM everything she said. She was a teacher for a few years so she understands how MM operates.
Anon 12:48. When I was playing a member around 2013 the Portland congregation was talked too, warned not to read this blog nor the children of the church FB page. Later as I was still playing being a member the threat from the arrogant GP not to read the blog and if you did so to tell the arrogant one himself. So the threat of withdrawal was there. Once I realized I was a nonmember I was no longer concerned with GP nor his threats not only did I begin to read the blog and two other FB pages dealing… Read more »
Didn't you have any idea you were a non member then?
KF I appreciate your input and the sharing of what you had to endure in your marriage. M Long great points and thank you. I do educate my children about the cult and will continue to do so. Anon 2:24 exactly a husband and wife should be able to discuss anything. But that ms not happening all thanks to the arrogant GP and the others whomever decided to say I’m a member so they could withdraw from me. Since then there’s a huge disconnect. All blame to the cult leaders and the two liars of counselors in Portland MM and… Read more »
So teachers instruct parents since your child acts out they must be unclean. I read a comment where the bedroom and closet doors were removed. Insane. So everyone who acts out is masturbating?
Concerned 10:49 I always had doubts I was a member. On a few occasions after KG and MG left for Columbus, Georgia I’d brought it up to Portland preacher MM and he never seriously looked into my concerns. Telling me I’m okay. That was troubling, though I just continued to toe the line. On another occasion MM came to me probably around 2002 asking about my baptism because I was showing no growth of taking on responsibility. This was something he was doing with others as well. I’m sure instructed by his counselors to do so. Nothing came from it,… Read more »