Historical Dates
- Oct 31, 1900 – Merie was born Modest Merrie Lyons. She went by the name Merrie, Mary, and Merie at different points in her life. She was baptized at a young age, but I don’t know how old.
- July 15, 1917 – Married her first husband, Roy E. King. I believe this is the husband who she never heard from again after he went to fight in WW I.
- 1939 – After leaving the church and leading a wild life, she returned in 1939.
- 1951 – Merie’s letters to the editor are published in the Gospel Guardian under the name “Merle” Weiss here and here.
- 1952 – Merie was actively teaching women’s Bible studies in the San Diego area according to an entry in the Gospel Guardian. She also transferred her membership to Imperial Beach Church of Christ about this time.
- 1958 – Merie is withdrawn from by East San Diego Church of Christ for causing divisions, and never returned from that withdrawal.
- 1967 – Merie writes the “Brethren Letter,” an open letter to Churches of Christ where she makes a case against the “liberals” in the ranks.
- 1973 – Merie writes the Holy Spirit Lesson.
- 1978 – Merie writes a postscript to the Holy Spirit Lesson.
- Dec 1981 – Merie passes away after a battle with (I believe) brain cancer. Please leave a correction in the comments if you have better information.
Note: My purpose in this article is to factually lay out the historical events that led to the formation of the Stanton Church of Christ sect we see today. If you have relevant information, or corrections to facts stated here, please let me know by email or give me a call at 208-249-8893.
Merie Weiss was the daughter of a staunch church of Christ member named Mattie Lyons. Merie was raised in the Church of Christ and baptized at a young age. Her given name was Modest Merrie (Mary) Lyons. I don’t know the story of why she eventually went by the name “Merie” rather than her given middle name of “Merrie,” or the more common spelling of “Mary.”
As a young adult, she left the church, and by all accounts, lived something of a wild life. In 1939, her mother invited her back to church to hear Brother Bills, the new preacher at Central San Diego Church of Christ (18th & G). She was “restored” to the church at this time, along with her sister Billie.
Merie spent time at various San Diego congregations, including at least three years at Hillcrest and two years at Linda Vista. Here is a photo of the Linda Vista church building:
One preacher at Hillcrest said he was glad Merie left for Linda Vista when Brother Bills returned from Oklahoma, because in his view, Brother Bills was the only one who knew how to handle Merie. The Linda Vista church eventually started a congregation in Imperial Beach, and Merie went there in 1952 for some time.
When Merie’s mother died, she and her sister, along with some family friends, went to Hillcrest, a congregation established by Central Church of Christ. It was here that Merie started questioning her marriage to Mandell. He was a gentleman about it, and bought her a six-plex. Living rent-free, she was able to provide for herself with the rental income from the other five units.
It was also during this time, during WW II, that my grandparents, the Gipsons, moved from Oklahoma and became part of the Hillcrest congregation. At this time, Merie was not the divisive figure she later became, but according to people who knew her, she was on her way. She had a tendency to draw attention to herself.
Merie was a charismatic leader, starting ladies’ Bible studies at the churches she attended and spending a great deal of time knocking on doors. Because she was being supported by her rental income, and perhaps some extra funds from Mandell, she did not need to work, and could devote as much time as she wanted to her militant activities.
Preachers and members of the churches she attended, on the other hand, could not keep up with her pace, because they had to support their families. Merie therefore developed a reputation as a hard worker who was zealous to build the church, but contrasted herself to the preachers, elders, and members, who she criticized for not being as zealous. Later, I’m told she financed the purchase of the Spring Valley church building, which became her home church and base of operations.
It is likely that it was during these early years that she developed her very effective technique of recruiting church members via a “non-member class” (initially called a “ladies Bible study,” but which expanded to include more than just ladies) as opposed to inviting people first to a Sunday or midweek church service. Simply inviting people to church would have put them into the teaching tutelage of the elders and preachers, while bringing them in through her separate Bible study allowed her to indoctrinate them more fully.
The El Cajon Blvd. Church of Christ sponsored a TV program called “Know Your Bible.” It continues to this day under different leadership by a church in Kansas, modeled after that original program. Listeners who responded to the program were referred to local congregations, whose members would answer the phones and invite them to Bible studies. However, the people answering the phones would frequently get phone calls complaining about Merie telling them they would go to hell if they didn’t listen to her.
Brother Bills tried to reign in her divisive teaching and help her to have more tact, but after he passed away in 1955, her teaching style became more and more divisive and radical. Her ladies’ Bible studies became a platform for recruiting sympathizers to help “overthrow” what she saw as the sexist system of preacher/elder leadership (before the term “sexist” was popularized). This eventually led to her being withdrawn from by East San Diego Church of Christ on 50th Ave. for “sowing discord and division” in 1958. She never came back into fellowship, and to my knowledge, never sought to. The irony is that Stanton holds its withdrawals until death, whether the person leaves of their own accord or not. By their own standard, Christians from 1958 on should not have been associating or eating with Merie. Remember, she didn’t officially declare the “off churches” to have “lost the candlestick” until the mid-60’s or 70’s (I don’t know the exact date).
In any case, her divisive behavior was well known in the San Diego churches, and the preachers at the various congregations considered Merie to be a tough personality to know how to handle appropriately. Her teaching style was particularly harsh, frequently pounding the table and calling out people by name to make her points.
On at least two occasion, Merie sent letters to the editor of the Gospel Guardian under the name of “Merle,” which doesn’t seem like an accidental typo since it happened twice. Perhaps this was a bit of dishonesty on her part, or perhaps the editor on two different occasions misread her name to be “Merle.”
She was very passionate in her dissent from mainline Church of Christ teaching that women should not teach men, yet she was clearly conflicted by her understanding of the Bible on this subject. She would recruit young people from the churches she was a part of to join with her, inevitably wreaking havoc and causing division, but always attempted to maintain the appearance of male leadership in her churches. I’m told she even wrote the sermons for the men she considered novices at preaching (which would have been all of them, at first). It’s interesting that she felt she needed these men to give her the appearance of Biblical legitimacy. I think this was an attempt to maintain a distinction between her and other female cult leaders like Mary Baker Eddy, Ellen G. White, and Amy Simple McPherson, whom she regularly criticized.
Here is a scanned copy of her original letter of withdrawal from East San Diego Church of Christ for “sowing seeds of discord and causing division” in 1958:
At this point, she started the Spring Valley congregation on Grand Avenue, which many of us remember from our treks to this church building for Merie’s Bible studies and weekend meetings. Here is the building now—although it appears to have been modified since I was a kid. I seem to remember it having a steeple on it.
She believed women couldn’t speak at all during “worship” services, which she apparently defined as the opening prayer to the closing prayer of the morning services. After this period of “worship,” though, she felt free to teach from the front as long as it was called a Bible class, often for hours at a time. My memories of her in Spring Valley as a child were of her sitting up front with a T.V. tray as her desk, pounding on it occasionally for emphasis. I always assumed she felt that if she stood, people would think she was preaching, but sitting meant she could get away with calling it “teaching.”
She was a forceful presence in the lives of the people who followed her, and in the subsequent rise of the sect. My dad worked for American Airlines at the time. My parents went briefly to El Cajon Blvd. Church of Christ in San Diego. It is still in existence with some of the same members that were around back then. Here’s a photo of that church building now (I don’t know if it looked the same back then):
My parents spent most of their marriage during this time at the Johnson Ave. Church of Christ in the City of El Cajon. This church also meets in the same place, with some of the same members that knew my parents back then. Here’s a photo:
When my dad was transferred to LAX, my parents went to the Rose Avenue Church of Christ in Bellflower. This congregation is still around as well; here is a photo:
My mom would make treks to San Diego to hear Merie teach. I was told it started off as a weekly trip every Monday. I don’t know how long that lasted, but by the time I was old enough to remember, the trips were mostly on long weekends like Labor Day, Memorial Day, or Thanksgiving.
Merie was apparently trying to persuade my parents to leave Bellflower and start a congregation. My dad did not like this idea, probably because he could see Merie’s negative influence on my mom. I didn’t learn this until recently—I had always assumed my dad was on board with starting the Stanton church from the beginning.
I don’t know the exact chronology, but my parents moved to the home I grew up in in Stanton shortly after I was born in 1968. At some point—I don’t know the date—there was a major personal falling out at Bellflower between my parents and the preacher there at the time, Forrest Moyer (yes, the same Forrest Moyer who was later the target of Merie’s challenges by public letters). This was apparently the catalyst that got my dad on board with starting the Stanton Church of Christ.
My dad told me in 2007 that Merie and her husband Mandell frequented communist lectureships at San Diego State, and even political protests at various points in their life. If this is true, it may help explain her radical, and sometimes authoritarian approach to Christianity.
I remember her teaching style very clearly, because I spent plenty of time listening to her pound the table and yell gruffly at her audiences when my mom would take me on her trips to Spring Valley. She would often publicly call out those not paying attention, or publicly chastise a member whose baby was being too loud. This set a culture for women with strong personalities to rise to the top of the sect and emulate her tactics of fear and intimidation. Her teaching style was harsh and confrontational, and if you listen to a sample of one of her lessons, this is not debatable.
Her caustic teaching style is no doubt why the church doesn’t talk about Merie much anymore. They have a large collection of tapes of her lessons, including duplicates and even some MP3s floating around. But like Seventh Day Advents, who try to minimize Ellen G. White’s influence on their church, Stanton tries to minimize Merie’s influence on their early years.
At the time, her tapes were systematically distributed throughout the “brotherhood” as the primary means of keeping the sect “unified.” Not anymore. Younger members who didn’t know Merie personally were so turned off by her that they no longer encourage anyone to listen to those recordings. My mom says that the tapes are not at all “locked up,” so I would encourage people to start requesting tapes or CD’s. If truth doesn’t need to be afraid of a lie, they should gladly oblige.
Merie wrote a number of open letters and lessons to the mainline Churches of Christ at the time in her efforts to reform what she saw as egregious errors. These included studies such as the Church Lesson, Holy Spirit Lesson, and the Moyer Letter. These lessons reflected her opinions on various subjects, ranging from paid preachers to theology of the Holy Spirit to worldliness and complacency in the church.
She believed she had special insight from God and that the Holy Spirit would lead her into all truth, but many of her lessons contain wildly out of context exegesis of scripture that she never recanted. This obviously calls into question the whole basis for her leadership of the sect and its claim to be the last remaining One True Church.
While they have, as a group, deviated from many of Merie’s original teachings and man-made rules, they still won’t throw her under the bus, because that would call into question the whole basis for the foundation of the sect. They still adhere to her core belief that the sect she started was founded on “the truth” and is the only “one true church” in existence today. Those in the old guard who have tried to continue holding up Merie as an authority on doctrine have been gradually pushed out of the group, and now consider themselves to be the last remnant of the One True Church. (If this changes, please let me know and I’ll update this page).
In short, Merie was a divisive figure in Church of Christ history, but not well-known to most mainstream members, because her schismatic correspondence was with preachers who had no interest in airing Merie’s opinions with their congregations. The sect has continued to grow, but it is mostly hidden in plain sight in the 30 or so communities nationwide they are located in.
Mandell Weiss
Merie had been married to a man who fought in one of the world wars, I believe it was World War I. He never returned from the war, so Merie assumed he was dead, and married a man named Mandell Weiss. After reaching the conclusion that she didn’t know with certainty that her first husband was dead, and that this meant she was not free to remarry, she separated from Mandell and moved next door, or at least very close by. They remained friends, from everything I could tell, and continued to spend time a lot of time together. He never became a Christian as far as I know.
Merie’s belief in dissolving marriages due to a perceived past “unscriptural divorce” radically affected the teachings of the church she started. Many marriages have been dissolved and children left in split homes due to the church’s changing (and therefore wrong) doctrines on divorce and remarriage. (Remember that staple teaching growing up…if the church changes it’s doctrine, it can’t be the One True Church?)
Mandell was independently wealthy and a big donor to the arts, with $1.2 million being provided to fund the Mandell Weiss Center for the Performing Arts. I’m told by an anonymous source that he made most of his money as a founder of Fedco, Price Club, and Costco. My dad has told me that Merie and Mandell went to communist lectureships at San Diego State. This is plausible, since Fedco was set up as an employee-owned collective, a sort of capitalist expression of the “collectivist” philosophy of the workers needing to participate in the wealth their labor generates.
I haven’t been able to verify (yet) if the affection for communist philosophy is accurate, or how well-versed she was in collectivist thinking, but I did verify that there was a controversial communist professor at San Diego State (Harry Steinmetz) during the 50’s who made headlines for his radicalism. If Merie was influenced by the idea of collectivism and communism, this could help explain Merie’s radical militant approach to Christianity, and her authoritarian, top-down style of leadership.
This collectivist philosophy may have also contributed to her teaching that welfare from the state was a gift from God designed purely for the benefit of Christians so they wouldn’t have to work as much and could do more church work. This teaching was prevalent in the church for quite some time—I remember expressing my disagreement with it during the short time my wife and I spent in the Ontario congregation in 1992.
For me, I always viewed welfare as a safety net, and felt that God’s people should be the ones with the strong work ethic providing a safety net for the world (ideally through our private generosity). In a perfect world, the church shouldn’t be the ones resting leisurely in the safety net of society, we should be its social safety net.
The following places are named after Mandell Weiss in the San Diego area:
- Mandell Weiss Eastgate Park
- Mandell Weiss Theatre (La Jolla Playhouse)
- Mandell Weiss Forum (at UC San Diego)
The Mandell Weiss Charitable Trust is still in existence, long after his death, but I don’t know if it is actively managed or if it is still involved in supporting the arts or other causes. Mandell’s name also shows up in various Los Angeles Times articles about the arts.
It never ceases to amaze me that so many people invest their life in a doctrine created by a radical old woman.
But then talk down on other religions that follow doctrines of man. Doesn't make sense.
Interesting that Kevin mentions that Merie may have, "…frequented communist lectureships." at some point in her life. The book "Twisted Scriptures" Appendix 2 gives a brief history of how "shepherding/discipleship/accountability" groups began and mentions a book by Douglas Hyde 1966 called "Dedication and Leadership: Learning from the Communists" as being influential in starting these kind of movements. Allegedly there was a discipleship movement in the mainline Church of Christ also during that period. Some of the problems outlined were "…militancy, control, elitism, hierarchical-ism, black and white interpretations, pressure to perform, loss of identity, loss of freedom- spirit and soul, suppression… Read more »
I used to wonder why the Merie Weiss sect referred to themselves as "militant" christians. There are many roots and history that started this kind of movement. http://www.somis.org/TDD-08.html I found this quote on this website, "In an earlier work, Buess had warned, "Some pastors and elders set themselves up as little 'Hitlers' over the flock. . . . Some even go so far as to demand submission to themselves rather than to the Lord. . . . You cannot make a decision for yourself."13
Just read this and it sure is true.
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=736&Itemid=8&limit=1&limitstart=4
This is a great commentary regarding the abuse of authority in discipleship type organizations. Here is an excerpt but it would be beneficial to read the entire article. "..I carry a special burden for this subject. In the article below, Lawrence Pile accurately describes the experience we had in a shepherding church in Maryland. Why do Christians get involved in situations like this? The reasons are inexperience, the desire for committed relationships with other Christians , a zeal to serve Jesus and a disregard for the warning Jesus gave about unbiblical authority. Many fail to understand the powerful motivations that… Read more »
The Church is not about Merie Weiss it's about the doctrine that Christ brought from God. All whom point thier finger at a women who have been gone for almost/ if not 25 years are foolish. The teachings of the church is from study of the bible. If their is a missunderstanding it comes from those whom choose to point fingers instead of growing in understanding. Merie Weiss delt with the babes the best way she could in her short time she had. But she also said that those babes would grow in understandings through study and they have. the… Read more »
1) No one's pointing their finger at Merie any more than the church points its finger at Charles Taze Russel who started JWs, Mary Baker Eddie who started Church of Christ Scientists, Ellen G. White who started Seventh Day Adventists, etc. Merie started the sect, and is therefore worthy of some amount of historical discussion in connection with the history of the sect. To deny this is to bury one's head in the sand, and I think the information here has been presented very fairly and factually. 2) You say "The church has grown in understanding through study…" but when… Read more »
A response to Anonymous August 15, 2013 at 1:30 PM: You may be too young to see the wreckage left in Merie's wake. Merie Weiss' doctrine has not been purged from the sect. Why do you never hear in classes, "Merie was wrong?" Why do you never hear, "Merie was teaching heresy?" They're not teaching all of Merie's opinions these days, so obviously, they know she was wrong and had to be corrected, but carefully excused away as "she was doing the best she could." She helped create monsters, including 2 women who might be the top 2 faces of… Read more »
About Godly Sorrow:You said, …"This Blog seems to be about the hurt you felt as well as others. My question to you all, rather point fingers at a woman whom has been gone for 25 years or more or the Church that Christ established. Let go and look at your ownself…" Forget about Merie for a moment? Can do. However, the leaders/teachers and preachers in this sect point the finger at others on a regular basis (and they’ll pound you down to nothing in front of others, and then do it more just because they can). They teach about Godly… Read more »
Anonymous 2; I agree with you. I also studied under Merie Weiss and have never regretted it. She taught us how to study, she taught us the meaning of zeal, and the fear of the Lord, which is his treasure. She set an example of teaching others which required sacrifice of ourselves but resulted in over thirty churches and about one thousand or so Christians. Much more than I have accomplished so far. The mainline Churches of Christ don't even begin to compare with her legacy.
Zeal is awesome, but there is a zeal that is not according to knowledge.
And if she taught you how to study, then you learned a lot of bad habits in your studies. Her scriptural exegeses are often completely out in left field.
You forgot to mention the other results of Merie's teachings which are the thousands of people who left because they were not willing to be forced into submission to the church's 'doctrines of men'. (Granted, people leave for various reasons; but you can't take at least partial blame for any of them leaving?) Merie had zeal, there is no doubt about that… but the fruits of that zeal seem questionable.
To Anonymous August 15 at 1:30PM & 4:27PM:Part of Merie's "legacy" was destroying families. She ordered congregations to get "sin out of the camp" (using a scripture from the Old Testament yet again) for "uncleanness" aka masturbation. This resulted in wives “tattling” on their husbands across all the congregations and getting their husbands withdrawn from (and thereby effectively getting rid of a lot of the male leadership in the process) & women also based on what she thought "the signs" of it were (and I heard Merie teach that myself). She supposedly had "special understanding" about it from the Holy… Read more »
Kevin, Merie alluded to some kind of special communication with God. When her brethren pressed her on this topic, asking, "How can you be sure you are right?" she answered, "If I told you, you couldn't handle it." Do you or any other posters know what Merie meant by this saying? Did she believe herself capable of handling things that others could not handle? What were her special powers that could not be revealed to others?
Great question. Maybe someone here has an answer. I recall that she alludes to some sort of special insight in some of her letters. I'd have to go back and find the excerpts, because it's been awhile since I've read them.
Special insight, special powers, special communication with God, before you know it you guys will have Merie Weiss wearing a cape and goggles shooting lightening bolts from her finger tips. This is getting good.
Anonymous 2:13, I can take a little sarcasm. 🙂 The answer may be "no, she didn't claim anything like that." But if she did, isn't it important to know that?
Did she or did she not allude to the fact that she had special insight from God? I know she believed the Holy Spirit would lead her into **all** truth before she died. That's pretty clear from her Holy Spirit Lesson.
Merie did say "you couldn't handle it…" referring to the special insight she had. The older teachers will confirm this if asked. My impression was that she believed something was revealed to her in a way it is not revealed to others.
Ask your older teachers in what context this was said.
Anonymous 1:50, it sounds you might have personal knowledge, maybe you can enlighten us?
I remember your mom had Merie's Bible, including handwritten notes.
Sorry I can't do better than this, but it was one of the early Spring Valley members who told me this, to the best of my recollection. It stuck with me because I was led to believe she experienced some kind of divine intervention. No one said "divine intervention" – that was how I understood it at the time. This was a cryptic comment that came directly from Marie: "You couldn't handle it" meaning, you could not handle the answer to the question, "How can you be sure you are right?" Upon hearing this, I concluded Merie had some kind… Read more »
Merie publicly questioned the veracity of men landing on the moon (on tape). She didn't say "it didn't happen," but encouraged a conspiracy theory on the topic. Merie didn't believe in dinosaurs. Regarding the existence of these creatures, the timing is purely speculative (agreed) but it was widely taught the fossils in museums are 100% fakes (as some are reproductions). When men claim to dig up complete vertebrae, rib cages and skulls, these archeological finds are considered staged and/or conspiratorial. Parents were regularly encouraged to edit clothing for children with any depictions/illustrations of "dinosaurs." Also, dinosaur toys, figurines, etc. are… Read more »
I do remember the anti-dinosaur teaching, but the moon-landing conspiracy theory I don't recall firsthand. That is pretty bizarre, as I remember my parents glued to the TV to watch it (it must have been an anniversary re-broadcast, since I was only 1 year old when the moon landing occurred).
That is very interesting info Anonymous 6:55. I remember parents and teachers in the church saying the fossils they dug up were from elephants or other large animals and the archeologists would make up and imagine that it was a dinosaur. They would then randomly piece the fossils together to create a man-made dinosaur.
I appreciate when people post from the early days of the CoC. It's always neat to hear first hand the stories you guys share.
Yes Mckenzie, that's the amazing thing about the commenters on this blog. We're able to get information from so many people going way back to the early years. I would be curious to know if the church still teaches that dinosaurs never existed. That is absurd. It does not compromise our faith to acknowledge the fact of the existence of dinosaurs, in fact, I think the Bible mentions them a couple times in passing. The timing of the dinosaurs and millions of years and evolution…that's a different story. That is absurd as well. But there is no rational basis, much… Read more »
Autonomy: 1. the right or condition of self-government, esp. in a particular sphere 2. the capacity of a rational individual to make an informed, un-coerced decision
Questions for Kevin:
1.) What is autonomy?
2.) Did you know the churches claim to be autonomous?
3.) Did you know teachers and preachers were often described as "in lieu of elders?"
4.) If "main teachers" regularly steer other teachers from outside the congregations, are they still autonomous? (Ex: guidance for a withdrawal comes from outside the local congregation)
5.) What is the scriptural basis for autonomy?
6.) Are these congregations autonomous?
1) I agree with the above definition of autonomy.2) Yes, I know the churches claim to be autonomous.3) No, I have never heard that, but it doesn't surprise me.4) This is a fine line, because anyone has the right to seek advice from people outside their congregation, but we all know the political and social pressures placed on teachers to adhere to the teaching and advice of those up the flagpole. I find that they try to maintain a "plausible appearance of autonomy" that is not really an honest representation of how decisions are really made. That's my opinion, having… Read more »
Kevin, you have become the self appointed referee of what is right and what is wrong. I find that very distasteful.
You don't see the irony in your statement? The church has been a self-appointed arbiter of what's right and wrong for the past 45 years.
Someone simply asked me my opinion and I shared it as concisely as I could, that's all. I'm sorry if that is distasteful to you. At least I've never claimed to be the One True Blog. 🙂
I believe the irony is found in the fact you are becoming the very thing you are accusing Stanton Churches of doing. The lesson here is when you have a group of people gathered with a set goal there must needs be someone who can answer their questions. The Stanton Churches are no different from you in that regard. The old saying is 'if you don't like it leave it'.
The "if you don't like it leave it" argument is just another opinion. When churches were astray in biblical times, people spoke out about it – people who were not even members of those congregations. I disagreed with Kevin on some points. He considers my viewpoint and gives a thoughtful response. This forum is about extra-biblical, harsh, opinionated teaching. So far I haven't seen much response. Are they too elevated to provide biblical explanations for their rules?
Anon 12:53, that is a bizarre statement. I have not once claimed authority as the One True Church. I'm not the one asserting that this blog is the Pillar and Ground of the Truth. Stanton has claimed that for itself. My only authority is the Word of God, as it should be. By that authority alone I make my case, and everyone here is free to accept it, reject it, or take it in and make it their own as their understanding of Scripture allows. The real issue you are inadvertently raising is how we each deal with dissent. Stanton… Read more »
Anon 12:53, Your statement, "If you don't like it leave it." is not a truthful statement if you are alleging this represents this sect's viewpoint and rhetoric issued to christians in their sect. Fear and intimidation tactics are continually used on christians keeping people from leaving out of fear. I wish people would start talking about the types of messages they've heard over the years that kept their hearts bound out of fear rather than love in staying despite all of the wrong things they heard being taught or witnessed being done. One of their favorite sayings is "…if you… Read more »
The "If you don't like it, leave it" statement implies "Don't criticize us if you don't agree with us, just leave us alone." But that is not how the church itself operates. They feel free to criticize groups and individuals they don't agree with.
Anon 9/22-12:53. Leave if you don't like it? Do you really mean that? And just where do you suggest I go? Can't you simply give scriptural explanation for your teachings and doctrines? If the churches teachings are truly scriptural they should be easy to prove. When a person says 'my church teaches this or my church teaches that' should he not be able to give verses to back up what 'his church teaches'? Isn't that a requirement of every follower, that they follow the Bible and that they can prove what they believe and practice by the Bible? Aren't Christians… Read more »
Kevin, did you really say that in light of the purpose of this entire blog? "They feel free to criticize groups and individuals they don't agree with", I believe was your statement. You reserve the right, the Catholics reserve the right, the baptists reserve the right and the Stanton Churches reserve the right, to criticize groups they don't agree with.
Anon 9:20, sorry if I was somehow unclear, but you heard the exact opposite of what I was trying to say. My whole point was to illustrate the hypocrisy that Stanton doesn't want to be criticized, yet they freely criticize others. I have no problem with criticism. I have a right to respond to it–in love–but I don't fear it.
One of the central teachings was derived from Matthew 16:19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Spoken to an apostle, these words carried great power and consequence. Contemporary teaching extended this power to churches existing in the 1970's until now. It was taught, whatsoever the churches decided to bind, whether it was a withdrawal or a Thursday night alien-sinner class, it would also be bound in Heaven. It is a practice to this day.… Read more »
Anon @ 3:40 – thank you for that clarification. I've always wondered which Scriptures they pull out to press their stance on attendance. This leads into rules for attendance at church related events… You are allowed to skip if:1) you are ill ( how sick do you need to be?)2) your children are ill3) are you allowed to skip if your husband is ill but he is self sufficient? I think the answer is no.4) if a relative says they NEED you, like when a baby is born, etc. But only if they actually say they need your help.5) you… Read more »
That is very enlightening, Anon 3:40, because that basically gives the church carte blanche to make up whatever doctrines they want. After all, whatever they bind on earth will be bound in heaven, right? Wow. They can basically do no wrong. That's pretty much a doctrine of infallibility.
Anon 4:28 You have itemized the category of "inability" (if sickness or inability do not apply) with 6 possible excuses, all of which could be considered valid. You would need to provide a thorough explanation and get approval from your teacher, preferably in advance of your absence. Main teachers are not required to secure approval from higher-ups. If you fail to perform any responsibility due to an unexcused absence, you may be stripped of certain privileges, such as preaching, even if you believe your excuse to be valid. You should also expect a sharp public rebuke.
Kevin, I don't believe the church applies a carte blanche policy. The doctrine concerning Matthew 16:19 was used to defend Merie's prior teaching and execute withdrawals of fellowship. Binding typically applies to the church schedule and discipline of its members. It could also be used for May meeting judgments, but not all judgments are considered "bound." As some of Merie's absurd judgments unraveled over the years, withdrawals were unbound, or "lifted." Merie's misunderstanding and misapplication of scripture was often slanted towards discipline and strictness. She needed a swift means of purging dissent, eliminating independent thought, gathering converts, and spreading her… Read more »
I can verify that her decision was taken as authoritative about when other churches had lost the Holy Spirit (or the "candlestick," using the Revelation letter language). There was a point at which they no longer honored the baptisms of people in mainline churches unless they were before a certain approximate date (and I don't know what that date was–it was obviously arbitrary). It seems to me this use of Matthew 16:19 is a bridge too far. If it authorizes them to "bind" withdrawals, May Meeting decisions, and other "judgements/opinions," it really does give them carte blanche to do anything… Read more »
Having endured the wrath of Merie's disciples, it is possible the next generation will reject her methods. The next generation cannot implement these changes until main teachers yield. Will disciples disavow core elements of Merie's teaching after 45 years of practice? Unlikely. That would take an ocean of recanting.
This sect believes baptism for the remission of sins will save you only if it is performed by one of their men from their 30 or so congregations (Oh my, they just added to God’s word!). If you tell them you believe God will save a person that is baptized for the remission of sins outside of their sect you will be withdrawn from. Their justification that God’s law in Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized will be saved, but he that believeth not will be damned” spoken by Jesus Christ himself is only effective in their sect… Read more »
To add to the confusion of this doctrine, they believe there was a year (I don't remember offhand what year it was…in the 70's I believe) in which Jesus "removed the candlestick" from mainline Churches of Christ and no longer recognized their baptisms.
For a group that excoriates others for teaching doctrines of their own making, this is a pretty brash assertion.
Do you know what their current beliefs are regarding the Holy Spirit? Last I'd heard was that the Holy Spirit pretty much works through the word only; something that they accused the off COC's of and I think that was part of the reason Merie thought the other COC's had lost the candlestick. They used to believe that time and chance happened to everyone, even them, but that may have changed also. Do they now believe that their dreams are sometimes inspired by God? They didn't used to.(Eccl 5:3)
Anon 12:43 – No, I would be interested in hearing from anyone who knows what their current beliefs are about the Holy Spirit. If they now believe it's "only through the Word," then that's a major departure from Merie's teaching. You're right, that was a central belief that Merie felt the need to divide from mainline churches over. I don't know about their beliefs on time and chance or dreams. Someone else might be able to respond to that.
Some posters appear to believe Merie's teaching is no longer relevant today and therefore should not be criticized. Elements of Merie's teaching are very much in practice today. It is critically relevant and in fact, the basis and purpose for this discourse. The majority of dissent stems directly from roots of Merie's harsh teaching, biased opinions, poor judgment and misinterpretation of scripture. Most of the concerns observed here are directly and precisely related to her specific opinions from 1972.
I think there have always been attempts to minimize Merie's leadership role because they know they are vulnerable to so many valid criticisms as a result. She continues to be a source of embarrassment for them, but they can't get rid of her legacy altogether, or that would delegitimize the entire sect. Not unlike Mary Baker Eddie, Ellen G. White, Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, etc.
Yes Kevin, the Stanton CofC uses the fact that Mary Baker Eddie, Ellen G. White, Charles Russell, Joseph Smith and etc. taught things and wrote things that their organizations later changed or denounced as PROOF that they are false religions. They absolutely refuse to lump Merie in the same boat. They can't have it both ways, BUT, what would be the Stanton CofC's options now? There are definitely those in the current church who want to go to heaven and live a righteous life before God. Many of the members aren't teachers or preachers and are trying to do the… Read more »
Great question! In this hypothetical, if "they" see the error of their oppressive ways, I assume you mean the church power structure recognizes its historical errors and the leadership makes a bold decision to change course. If that were to happen, I would shout "hallelujah" and encourage anyone with teaching ability, some real Bible knowledge, and a regenerated heart to bring about a revolution of love. Can that ever happen? I don't know. With God, anything's possible, I suppose. I would be very excited and give praise where praise is due if I heard higher-ups setting a vision for a… Read more »
The following subject should be treated in a delicate manner, but is historically important, defining a pivotal moment in the understanding and application of church discipline. I should advise you, this story is hard to believe, but if you ask one of the older ones, they will confirm it. Many years ago, one Christian parked a car in another Christian's driveway. If my memory serves me, the car leaked oil. The car was owned by an individual who is now one of the main teachers. The church executed a withdrawal for parking the car in the driveway. Both the car's… Read more »
Wow, that is incredible. I so appreciate the information provided by people who have a longer history than I did and more detailed knowledge of incidents that happened than I do. And you're right, the information should be handled delicately, because I have no desire to engage in ad hominem attacks, particularly if the people involved later "repented" of their unjust withdrawal. But the historical fact that it happened is clearly important to the understanding of just how devoted members and teachers are to following church authority, even when they have to know it's unjust, unmerciful, and flat-out wrong. What… Read more »
What I have always found to be ironic is when a teacher who is 'doing what they are told' by outside counsel for many years ends up withdrawn from for oppression or wrong handling of their congregation. I've seen instances where the 'outside counselor' who gave the teacher all of their 'advice' ends up suggesting the teacher be withdrawn from. The teacher was just doing as they were told by that outside counselor. Why wouldn't the outside counselor take some heat also? I can't understand why a withdrawal would be necessary if the teacher was 'obeying orders'. Withdrawal is so… Read more »
Outside counselors do take heat, but not very often. When Dianne White/Collier went down, she went down fighting – she was tremendously abusive. There was yelling, exiting the room, coming back, more yelling. She called it a kangaroo court, probably because outside counselors were brought in for extra "muscle." They're not used to taking the heat – mostly just dishing it out. However, they took a lot of heat when rising to their various positions – everybody did. When you get to the top of the hierarchy, you rest a little easier because ordinary congregants cannot publicly criticize teachers (similar… Read more »
I find the "palace intrigue" of the rise to power fascinating. I didn't get to witness much of that growing up, other than certain teachers being "taken down" via withdrawal for various silly offenses. But I never knew who initiated these internal battles, or even if they were being "counseled" from outside the congregation.
Merie definately taught that the moon landing was staged. I was at that meeting and heard it with my own ears. I actually believed it for years because of that meeting. Just saying.
Who are all of the individuals posting? It would be more understandable considering the "reference point"..
I don't have any way of knowing who all the posters are.
I cam into the church in 1983 in Tacoma, WA. This was right after the death of Marie. I left three years later. I came back in 1999. I had listened to tapes of Merie back then and still have some of her tapes. I remember how the preachers and teachers were back then. When I cam back I noticed a huge difference in how things were being taught and handled. They quit questioning of the mind, no longer withdraw for uncleaness, no longer interfere with people's marriages, etc. I remember people saying that Merie said that everybody else is… Read more »
Hi Lynn, Thanks for posting your comments and history. I value the perspective of someone who remains in the group and is still bold enough to identify who they are and say publicly that they disagree with leadership. That's rarely happens because of (from my perspective) a culture of fear and intimidation for anyone who thinks for themselves. So my hat's off to you. I have to ask…do you feel any pressure to keep your disagreements to yourself, or have you found a way to express differences of opionion without being labeled as "murmuring?" I think it is possible to… Read more »
The pressure is there as I was told in bringing up something I saw as being handled incorrectly would cause me to be withdrawn from. My disagreement is in how those who's physical conditions make them miss some classes. Instead of taking the time to help and work with those with infirmities they are told to push their flesh to make it to classes and if they don't they are in sin. We are told to bear one another's burdens and help the weak. Mat. 25 speak of the sheep and the goats being judged by how we treat our… Read more »
Lynn, when you say you are transferring to another congregation, do you mean another 'approved' congregation in fellowship with the one you are in currently or do you mean an 'off church' congregation? Have you found another congregation that you feel upholds more truthful teaching?
I was brought up in the "Off church". I know their teachings and know they are wrong and dead.
I have been to other congregations and they are great. I have been to Portland, Boise, and one near San Francisco. I know a few people from other congregations farther out that are wonderful.
I have been in contact with one of the preachers in AZ and am looking to move there.
I know enough of the bible to know when a church is not following the true doctrine and will always seek the truth.
@Lynn, your actions indicate you don't really believe the church is 100% in unity as the church teaches that it is. Either it is, and all congregations "Speak the same thing" or it isn't, and you must move around to find the one that best reflects your point of view. Am I missing something?
It is not so much, "my point of view". It is like changing venues of court because there won't be a fair trial at present location. This congregation already looks at me as being in sin, but I have seen other congregations do in the name of Christ what this one won't. I can't get here what I need. This is what comes to mind – Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; We can all speak the same things, but is there… Read more »
You don't need to convince me about justice and mercy. And if you read my blogs on unity you know that I don't believe "speaking the same thing" means what Stanton teaches it means.
However, it is still abundantly clear that if one congregation or "teacher" says you are "in sin" while another lets whatever it is slide "in love," then the church is not in "unity" as it understands the word. That is self-contradictory. Please share if you can…this is very unusual for someone who accepts the church's doctrines to speak out like this in disagreement with the church.
I am not in disagreement with the church. I am in disagreement of how certain people are handling the dispensation of the doctrines and laws. Yet, there are some things that I do believe that this congregation has made individual understanding and belief like unto Law. Especially when you are told you sinned for not adhering to it. Sin is a transgression of the law of Christ. Where there is no law there is no sin. I whole heartedly believe in the the teachings of the Church of Christ, but there are those who would misuse the dispensation and application… Read more »
If you have heard of other congregations not being like that, isn't that "murmering" and subject to "withdrawal" according to church doctrines? I find it fascinating that you say you agree with the church, and all congregations are in unity, but when you find a congregation that teachings or practices differently than another, you blame in on certain people who aren't doing things right. It seems contradictory to me.
Ryan Messano – I've stayed at the Messano home before. They have a large family and the mom has fallen away. I hope to meet them all again someday.
Thank you, Lynn, wonder what your last name is? I too was in Tacoma, in 2000, just a little after you. Wonderful people, dear memories. Yet, there comes a time in a humans life when they have to decide if unity with others in an unscriptural doctrine, is worth more than having all ones prior confessed wrongdoings outed and being withdrawn from. I decided it wasn't, and while being alone in ones search for God and in pursuing ones duty to God can be an intimidating and frightening proposition to the human, because John Donne said, "No man is an… Read more »
I'm sorry, I can't give out my name. I have been in the church for around 16 years. I have spent a great number of those years studying and believe I have outgrown my congregation. I am not trying to stand on a pedestal. I have chosen to study and live the words in the bible and many could not keep up and I was outcast. Not withdrawn from, but discredited. I got counsel from Penny Cornforth and another preacher belittled me in a Sunday sermon for following it and nothing was done to the preacher. This is only a… Read more »
Does the Merie Weiss sect still emphatically believe that the Pope is the Antichrist? I remember it was said that Merie had special information that the crown the pope wore had the inscription 666 in it which was supposed proof. I've heard mainstream COC's do not believe the popes are antichrist. There's much information pointing to Nero having been the antichrist. I, myself do not know.
I don't know whether they still believe that. I don't remember Merie claiming "special knowledge" about the inscription, but I do remember my parents believing that growing up. I concur that Nero is much more likely to be the person meant by the 666 reference in Revelation, but the pope interpretation was popular in Alexander Campbell's day. I'm fairly certain Merie would have inherited her beliefs about that from Campbell's debate with Purcell, a Roman Catholic priest.
I've read the Rice/Campbell debate, and it
She never taught that he was the Antichrist. John gave us the description of what an antichrist was and said that there were many there. If an antichrist is anybody who does not believe that the Christ came in the flesh then how can the Vicar of Christ be one? 1 John 4:2-4 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,… Read more »
Well, I'm just beginning to read this blog I think it's very interesting. I marvel at the different reactions to the experience of being part of the "old country" This is what I affectionately call this sect of the Church of Christ. Some are so hurt and rightfully so, I was hurt by the church myself. I regret that I didn't let my son be more involved in school activities and other activities I think now it would have been very good for him. I can't change the past, as much as I'd like to; I may go to God… Read more »
Marci, thanks for reading, and thanks for your comments. I think no matter how negative an experience it was for people, with the proper attitude, "all things work together for good to those who love God." There is always something to be learned and gained from life experiences, even negative and painful ones. While I agree that everyone there could have left sooner, so in that sense, they were exercising their own choice to stay, I also think the church's relationship with members is somewhat like an abusive relationship. Women who are kept in these controlling, abusive relationships by their… Read more »
"The scarlet letter" Anything and everything I did was wrong.
This is interesting because I noticed it too. It was even brought out by one of the older Christians, who had been a preacher, but was dismissed. He asked if we could start looking at people in a way that everything they do as being wrong. I have seen a where if the preachers and teachers keep bringing up negative things about you that the congregation more than likely will follow. Eventually you can feel like you are withdrawn from without the official withdrawl.
Lynn, teachers built their "spiritual victories" on me. One Christian could do something equal or more series than what I may have been accused of ~ That Christian would be excused because that Christian was liked, accepted. Me? It would be rebuke after rebuke…and whatever I did would be immeditately considered for withdraw. I was withdrawn from 4 times. I would sit in these meetings listening to the judgments thinking won't anyone say this is not right? I would think to myself if I'm ever in a situation where someone is being up for withdraw for reasons that don't merit… Read more »
Words of wisdom, Marci. Thank you.
This is some stuff i have never heard being raised in the church. I look forward to reading more!!
I was a member of the church for a few years and have gone back a few times only to remind myself why i left in the first place!
Scapegoating of brethren occurred often in Phoenix. When the teachers went off to may week and were asked how things were going the reply was great!, wonderful! well, except for this one brother/sister who is …… This was done to one person after another until they left. The scapegoat was blamed for all the sins in the congregation many of which the person had no knowledge of. By having a scapegoat others could hide their sins with the accusing finger( look at him/her and what they did! they are the sin in the camp, they are the reason for God… Read more »
The Enemies doctrine: it is almost impossible to overestimate the importance of enemies to an oppressor. Enemies do not just feed the hatred an oppressor feels, but it provides a much needed bonding element for new babes. It is much easier for charismatic preachers to define themselves by who they hate rather than by what they believe in. What bonded you to "the one true church"? Hatred of homosexuals? Hatred of "worldly" people? Hatred of fallen away brethren? "The one true church" practice all the meathods of a cult starting with isolation from family and friends calling them "worldly" The… Read more »
Anonymous 6:04 am-I agree with you on the manipulation to stay in the church. I left 'the church' about 7 months ago after being in bondage to the (Stanton) churches for 36 years. I left this sect to find the TRUE GOD who does not scrutinize. I DID find what I was looking for in a church of Christ and am grateful to God for freeing me from oppression. Right after I was baptized in the Stanton sect I was convinced my dad went to Hell because he was not baptized as we were taught. I was further convinced by… Read more »
YES! Love demonstrated by actions.
One of the saddest lessons I learned in my time with the COC was how destructive discord truly is. The teaching preacher from the Albuquerque church started sowing discord the day the other teaching preacher left to start the church in Prescott AZ. He started going around telling the Christians in the audience of the Thursday non member class "I wish anyone was teaching the class except him" while the man was giving the non member class. Another time we were at a Vellejo CA meeting and I mentioned to him that a young man had come down from Alaska… Read more »
Yes, I know I'm criticized for being so passionate about this silly little topic of love, but when you look at the stories of dysfunction in families and congregations, the problem can always be pinned on a clear lack of love, can't it?
One of the false teaching of the "one true church" is from mother Marylin in the Phoenix congregation. She openly taught that all children that died outside the church of christ today went to Hell, and all children that died outside the nation of Isreal in the old testament went to hell also. She stated that because the scripture says that "all nations that did not worship god went to hell and that included the children." This teaching makes God a baby killer. This is the same propaganda put out by the Nazi's that subhuman children should be killed; and… Read more »
One of the perverted false teaching in the "one true church" was taught by an older sister who came down from Portland OR. In the Ladies class held on Friday's she taught that christian mothers do not allow their male children to hold themselves as they urinate. The sister from Portland said that this is from the scripture Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you. My wife complained about the mess this created in the bathroom. I wondered what kind of… Read more »
Kevin, I have to say this is all getting pretty silly. The people making comments are vastly different than those who participated when you first open your blog. Almost funny.
It is very seductive as a teacher to reduce the intellectual freedom of your students. You can not create a following out of self directed people. In order to have a movement you got to get people to put aside their own dreams and opinions to serve your dream. Seekers are taught that all facets of adult judgement are off limits, and one is required to seek counsel (approval) of their teachers. This makes the follower easy prey for well meaning charlatans, unskilled teachers, and scam artists of all kinds. Christian you have been stripped of your ability to control… Read more »
Anon 8:01, you're absolutely correct. The church culture that SCOC practices is one that keeps the sheep in the fold through fear and intimidation.
Christianity is not for free thinkers but for those who are willing to discipline their minds to a doctrine or Gospel. Your opinion works if you are building a democracy. But Christianity is not a democracy, it's made up of people willing to become disciples or to follow a discipline. And are willing to be sheep following a shepherd. So to sum up your wrong in your assessment of Christians, teachers, preachers, elders and deacons. In fact you are dangerously wrong.
I have to respectfully disagree. Free thinking is not only necessary but it overcomes the dullness of the SCOC. I was told at baptism that the natural man cannot understand the deeper things of God, but that after baptism with the aid of the Holy Ghost I could understand the deeper things of God. However after baptism there were only two or three sermons preached: your unclean and your going to Hell, I love myself and you should love me too, and lets worship the evangelist in Spring Valley. The lessons were so redundant that I started to fall asleep… Read more »
Correct. They don't just prohibit "free thinking," they basically ask for a suspension of your thinking to accept some of the bizarrely contradictory teachings.
Simply your opinion sir
@Concerned, true, Christianity is not a democracy. But our choice is not between democracy and free thinking, that is a false choice. In fact, you are implicitly acknowledging that you are *not* free to think because you have subordinated your thinking to the discipline of SCOC. It's one thing to freely think and freely choose to subordinate their behavior to a fellow human being. But God never asked us to bring our thoughts into subjection to any human being. Our thoughts are to be brought into "captivity" to Christ, not other mortals: 2 Cor 10:5 – Casting down imaginations, and… Read more »
I am beginning to think when you study your Bible you are coming to your own conclusions. You 'turn around' and tell us we can be free thinkers. Rather wouldn't it be a better understanding to say we are to have the mind of Christ? Doesn't the bible teach us to bring our will and everything else down under the will of God's? You say one thing but then 'turn around' and say another. I believe you to be disingenuous sir. As I go through your blog you easily teach other minds how to think about the churches of Christ.… Read more »
@Concerned, I am *not* saying that you and I differ, therefore I am correct and you are wrong, so we are both equal. That is one of the least well-reasoned points I've ever heard anyone make in attacking the basis for this blog. You say "Doesn't the bible teach us to bring our will and everything else down under the will of God's?" Well, yeah. Were you thinking that I *don't* desire to follow God's will? What is God's will? That's the real question. I am "all in" when it comes to following God's will, as you are, no doubt.… Read more »
The term "free thinking " is a response to my post on may 8 at 8:01pm. I don't disagree with what is being taught, that is I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, That baptism washes away one's sin's, and many other teachings found in scripture. My post is to disagree with the way the gospel is taught in SCOC. It is taught in a insulting, belittling manner. The motives of the teacher need to be searched out, i.e. is the teacher a narcissist? What is the motives behind the way the teachers teach the gospel? You… Read more »
I agree 100% with everything you said in your post "The Fool in Phoenix." It is vital to know what type of people you are dealing with, particularly those in power, instead of blindly following the powers that be. You can't confront errors in a belief system unless you can see what is faulty in it. I came across this description of a narcissist's behavior and thought that is exactly what I witnessed in the sect. "If you’re dealing close with a narcissist, you have to be cautious because narcissists aren’t afraid of throwing anyone under the bus. “A narcissist… Read more »
Finally someone who sees what I see. The greatest weakness of a narcissist is that when others dress like and act like the narcissist, the said narcissist becomes blind to who his followers are because he(or she) only sees themselves in others and the sycophant is then free to do anything and everything and the blind narcissist leaders does not see anything they do. This explains why some brethren can do some of the worst sins and nothing is said, the narcissist preacher does not even notice the behavior and does not believe it when you call it to their… Read more »
One of my saddest memories from my time in the church in Phoenix was seeing a babe come to class with a shawl on her head. She was looking around for confirmation of her understanding of 1Cor 11:16 the infamous "hat questions" which is a common misunderstanding with new babes. The Narcissist preacher from Albuquerque never even noticed her. He was the center of attention with his fan club of sycophants surrounding him. The young woman need attention and encouragement in her walk with Christ and got none. She died on the vine and fell away. The narcissist preacher never… Read more »
One thing that has been pointed out by some brethren and denied by those who are said to do it is that a lot of the older brethren do ignore a lot of the young ones. It is like a lot of preachers and teachers prefer those of their own status over those who look up them for guidance. One of the Evangelists actually brought this up in a talk and made it the the other person's fault for thinking that way. I have also seen this and been victim of it. Another prominent preacher, said in a talk, they… Read more »
Thanks I needed to hear that.
How sad is this for a church that believes in no division but yet cause a division by preference over certain brethren . It breaks my heart I pray God have mercy on them as certainly many young babes left this group or completely left god due to the neglect .
And what I think is that they don't realize that they are responsible. It is easy to put the blame on those who leave because of they ways they, or others, have been treated when they leave, But according to they they fall away. Personal responsibility is so crucial in Christianity. I will have to stand before God and give account of what I did to other people. The biggest thing that always bothered me was when preachers from other congregations and the Evangelists ignore your emails like you are too small for them to bother themselves with. We are… Read more »
I suppose they just need a good leader with good leadership skills that will motivate the young ones. No different than the worldly organization . I do not know why this made me upset. I do know for a very long time I esteemed this group very highly for their sacrifice and dedication but to think of them as selfish breeds is hard to take . I'm sure the older and wiser brethren are too darn busy with others more important things. I love Christ for the fact he sat among sinners.
That's just it. There is was the opposite. They esteemed the brethren that had higher status and practically shunned those they deemed unworthy. There was a talk done in 2008, by one of the Evangelists, titled, :"Don't Forget Them In The Valley ". This was supposed to be an exhortation to get people to not forget or ignore those who are in spiritual need amongst our own brethren. Those who are struggling or have a hard time in their Christianity need their brethren. It is a very wise and put together talk by a great preacher, but I have come… Read more »
One sad fact that needs to be pointed out is that there is no new leadership. No bishop/elders in 46 years? Consider no new evangelists, no new teachers, and no new teaching preachers either, no advancement hardly at all. The spiritual leader is the evangelist in Spring Valley, CA. He was baptized in 1976 and was sent out and started the church in Boise and then the church in Denver and the was called back to Spring Valley to deal with the rebellious brethren there and has been in Spring Valley ever since. In 1990 an older woman teacher with… Read more »
There are three ways we learn God's commandments: by direct commandment (thou shalt not), by authoritative example (the Apostles worshipped on the first day of the week), and by necessary inference ( we study everyday because of the mention of those who were more noble because they searched the scriptures daily). There are three ways to teach the gospel: by direct commandment, by authoritative example, and by implying (so others can infer) what is good. Merie taught everything by direct commandment which is a crude but effective method. In Phoenix the teaching was by implying only which was vague and… Read more »
In the emotional world we feel anger when someone crosses one of boundaries. If we are disrespected we get angry, if someone steals from us we feel violated and get angry. Anger is used to set boundaries in others as well because they fear us when we are angry. When teaching the direct commandments such as: THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY! it is best taught in anger; this sets up a boundary in the other persons conscience and they will not commit adultery easily. You can create boundaries in others minds by teaching direct commandments with anger, and this works… Read more »
There are three psychological steps that must be accomplished to change a person. Cult's, communists, and the military know and practice these three steps and would you believe they come from the Bible? Step one is a separation from the persons known environment, (a symbolic death). Step two is an intense period of instruction and or training. ( a symbolic burial of the old man). Step three is the welcoming into the group the changed person ( a symbolic resurrection). All three steps have to be completed for the change to become permanent. This pattern can be seen in many… Read more »
How much time is required in step one; the separation from known environment? Three days. In combating cult mind control the author said that the "moonies" conducted three day retreats in order to program the new recruits and when he became a deprogramer it would also take three days to complete deprogramming. Why is it three days? I don't know but three days is the required time to complete step one in changing a person.
@fool You've posted a lot of interesting things, and most of it right on about human thinking and behavior. I think it's helpful to understand how the human mind works, and why people get sucked into churches that abuse power and influence like this. On the other hand, people can get "rescued" from sects like this using one of two approaches–psychology, or Jesus Christ. It's possible for those who rely on secular thinking to get them out to in some ways be no better off than when they were in, if they don't truly come to have a real relationship… Read more »
Thank you Kevin. I left the church dazed and confused and found answers to what was being done there in the field of psychology. I agree with you that salvation only comes thru Jesus Christ but I left the COC not trusting in anything or anyone having anything to do with religion. However the more I studied the human mind in the field of psychology the more it pointed right back to the gospel. The human mind has three basic parts: pride (arrogance), flesh (lust), and the soul (conscience). I was taught by arrogant teachers to serve them as god… Read more »
I just wanted to share something with you all….it was the evangelist from Greenville that first caused the thread of doubt to unravel for me. He was visiting our congregation and at a fellowship we were discussing which scriptures supported having and requiring bible classes. An older member used Matthew 16.19, but the evangelist said he wouldn't use that scripture. Instead he would use James 4.17 :Therefore to him that knows to do good and does it not, to him it is sin."This blew me away! It caused me to study more on the scriptural support of bible classes, and… Read more »
God granted me understanding this week in Proverbs chapter two. It talks about the froward man and the evil woman. It says how the froward man leaves the paths of uprightness and the evil woman forsakes the guide of her youth. In context Solomon was talking about Jewish kids who had grown up in Israel and had then scorned God's law and become wicked. The commandment to honor thy father and mother was scorned and it caused the children to go astray when they became adults. It is important for each parent to praise the other parent to the children.… Read more »
Anon 8:09, there's a lot of wisdom in what you just said…which makes sense since you're talking about Proverbs. 🙂 It is very important as a parent to have your authority unquestioned in front of your kids. Parents have the full right and responsibility to raise their kids and make sometimes difficult and complex parenting decisions that no one outside the home has the right to judge. We can all find examples of people who need parenting advice, and it's OK to come alongside them and try to help them out, but never to demean them in the eyes of… Read more »
Did I make the right decision in leaving the church? Well considering that many criminals were abused as children, and two of my children were raised in the church (and my children were abused by church babysitters) and the two older ones have both done several years in prison, but the younger children were raised outside the church and have no criminal tendencies. I would say yes it was the correct decision to leave an abusive church. My biggest regret is that I did not leave sooner, if I had maybe my two oldest would not be in prison today.… Read more »
Here is another story. We had a visiting preacher who was one of the Evangelist for our Sunday worship. That evening class he was open for questions. I asked the question in Rev. 7:9. Specifically what is to be understood about " a great multitude, which no man could number"? I don't think I am exaggerating but before the last tone came out of my mouth he began his answer abruptly with a, "you can't count them". So I thought for a few seconds and to better clarify my question I said something about it being a whole bunch of… Read more »
Anon 9:41 PM, So sorry to hear what you had to go through. I, for one, love asking and answering biblical questions. I love speaking on the oracles of God. That's what we are for, is to help each other understand the scripture's better. I think that to many preachers and teachers are getting irritated to have to answer questions, especially in the book of Revelation. Whenever I would finish my regular studies I would venture into other books to keep my mind into it, but to many times I would get the guilt trip of spending to much time… Read more »
How fast is a person rejected in "the one true church?" Well consider this: when we in Phoenix were helping to form the church in Prescott AZ we first baptized a young lady about eighteen years of age who lived in Prescott Valley with her parents. She had been taught by a cousin who was part of the Oxnard congregation. The parents of the young lady in Prescott Valley were baptized a short time later. After the first worship this new family attended in Phoenix the parent said something to their daughter that the teaching preacher did not approve of,… Read more »
It was once said that I didn't know what the purpose of the church was. At that time what I was fighting for was the love and support from my brethren. I believe that is what we are together for, to exhort and be there for each other in our times of spiritual need. I have also seen many times when the older ones don't take the time to help other people. Their definition of helping people is pointing out their sins, whether they are right or wrong about it, and calling you out if you don't change. It takes… Read more »
God granted me understanding this week and i wanted to share it with others. In Pr 16:18 It says that"pride goeth before destruction " I was taught that this is refering to self destruction but God revealed to me that this also refer to nations prior to going to war. The national pride is raised by the leader of the country and this leads to offenses against their pride and then war. The destruction is not to self but to others. This is a warning to the wise when you see other puffing up with pride then destruction is sure… Read more »
Can you be manipulated by guilt? If I have done something wrong, that is, broken one of God's commandments, then I should feel guilty. But if there is no sin then I should not feel guilty. One guilt trip I recieved was "yea we have our checking and savings account but what about the giving?" It seemed that I was doing wrong by having a checking and savings account, but what commandment is being broken? Guilt trips are used constantly to manipulate church members into doing or not doing things to please the preacher/teacher. You must study your bible to… Read more »
Are they still teaching you should give at least ten percent?
There has been many false and hurtful statements written on this blog and it is time to address it in court. We need any persons who have had their names mentioned here and have suffered damages as a result; i.e. defamation of character, ruined reputations, etc. to write down your negative experiences and the resulting damages and give it to your teachers who will forward it to church leadership for the upcomming libel lawsuit against Kevin Harper and any other posters who can be identified on this blog. Thank you.
Yikes! Lawsuits never have a good outcome except to make the courts richer.
If the post is real, then it means that the ones who write down the "negative experiences and the resulting damages and give it to" their teachers will have to admit they are reading the blog. Not sure you really want to admit that.
And I'm wondering what are the false and hurtful statements?
Yes, exactly. But remember, teachers have waffled on the "don't read the blog" thing.
wow! All the so called libel for ol preman (believe me I'm not his disciple)and at the end you make a one line apology if you're wrong. Amazing! preman is too smart to take anyone to court. He knows better
OMGosh Can it be that Gary has stepped out of the shadow he's been hiding in to make a bold threat to those he has belittled and insulted? Is he truly going to "involve himself in the affairs of men" contrary to his own doctrine? Have his feelings and pride been so hurt that he now cries for others to defend him? Poor poor Preman. You are pitiful and becoming meaningless among your faithful and blinded flock. Maybe this attempt to scare your dissenters will back-fire on you. The facts you choose to bring forward will likely shine a bright… Read more »
KF, I realize you've been hurt by the sect and by specific individuals, but I've said it many times, please find another forum for personal vindictive. This is not the place to settle scores or win arguments in divorce court. I ask you to respect the intent of what I've tried to accomplish on this blog, which is fact-based history and scriptural reasoning with the sole intent of helping people who have been oppressed by Stanton's teachings to see that there is a God who is alive and well outside of Stanton.
Man kf your as sick a puppy as kevin. ol man preman is too smart to lower himself to the rantings. He will just rejoice and be really glad as jesus said. what's weird is that preman is probably praying for your well being and rehabilition. Quite a difference in personality. I don't go on his side or agree with him but, seems like the real man is appearing.
Anon 9:15, I'm confused. You appear to defend the church vigorously, but claim I'm "sick" and who knows what else while hiding behind anonymity. I've allowed anonymous commenting since some people may still be inside the sect, or have family members inside the sect, and could suffer social repercussions for engaging with this blog. However, it appears you're using anonymity for other, more self-serving purposes. I'm not sure what they are, but I'd encourage you to come clean with who you are, and actually tell me why you think I'm "sick."
Thats not Gary Preman, and if it is something has turned in a way I would have never seen coming. Whoever is faking…..weird.
Agreed. Lots of subterfuge in the comment section, particularly among the anonymous commenters.
I agree with you Kevin and Frank! I also want to point out to Anon March 30 at 9:15, Gary will NOT likely be praying for Kevin's well being. Unless the Group has changed, the Christians in the group are not allowed to pray for anyone's well being that is not currently with the group.
Hello?
One of the negative effects of criticism is that it creates resentment in the people that hear it. A person will either agree with you and resent the people you are criticizing or they will resent the person putting out the criticism; either way resentment is created. I am always amazed at how the SCOC uses criticism of other religions in its recruitment practices (personal work) and what poor results they have. Most normal people stay only a short time and leave when the criticism turns from other religions to them, or other members of the church. Most that choose… Read more »
I agree about the effects of criticism, but I believe it's more the effects of constant criticism that's detrimental (spelling!?) It's one thing to hear criticism that can be used, it's another to be told constantly what a failure you are. You begin to believe that you can't do anything right, and must depend on someone else to tell you what to do and how to do it right.I asked our teacher, once, if we could have a class on encouragement. He said "What is there to be encouraged about?" This shocked me and got me thinking about the teaching… Read more »
I agree, when I came back to the church I saw that members were doing that. It seemed like an attack on their beliefs and it stands a great chance of closing them down from hearing you. What I would do, at the doors, is introduce who we are and that we are inviting people to a bible class to learn more of what the bible teaches. Then I would ask if they attend church and if the did how much are they expecting to get out of it as they are the ones putting in the time to go… Read more »
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."Aristotle
Why was I treated so badly in the Church of Christ? Well I Peter 4:17 tells us that judgement begins at the house of God. What this means in the COC is that some members are wicked and need to be driven out of the church for the church to prosper and receive God's blessings. Christ taught a parable in MT 13:47-48 that when the net is brought to shore the good fish are kept, and the bad are rejected; the same is with Christians. The personal work attracts all kinds of people, both good and bad. Both the good… Read more »
What isn't being realized, by the church, is that the responsibility of weeding out their brethren, by treating them badly, was NEVER their responsibility. What NEEDS to be realized is that God will judge us and hold us accountable for treating any of his people badly even if they believe they are justified. Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! This applies even if it our own preachers, teachers, and/or brethren. Even if I believe my brother/sister is in the wrong I am… Read more »
Totally agree, Lynn, I too would prefer to be judged by God and not teachers. LOL anonymous 5/13/2016. So very true. To be a righteous christian you have to obey the 11th commandment "Thy teacher is always right, and thou art always wrong". The church is involved in disinformation, for in one breath they will say they follow the Bible entirely, but in the next, if you dare find something in it they don't teach,they will move heaven and earth to get rid of you and declare you public enemy number one. I've tried numerous times to return, and they… Read more »
Then, when I visited the church for the May Meeting when I was excommunicated, I experienced a shocking lack of hospitality, and some brethren wanted to call the police on me. That wasn't all, I was rewarded by someone spray painting my car black the next day. The church says that was "the hand of God", but I have a strong suspicion that children of Christians were involved. How, dear reader, is that any different from me opposing the marijuana advocates? They went online and made up a false imposter website and called me a homophobe, and levelled all kinds… Read more »
The absolute attack on free speech is an offense to the very free speech our Christian Founders gave us. But the church thinks it is a waste of time to learn about our Founders, they think we only need to learn the Bible. What they forget is our Founders in 1776 understood human nature, history, and the Bible much better than anyone in the church does now. Unlike the church and it's children, these men of 1776 were raised with the Bible being taught them in schools and in church. Not only were most Christians in Stanton today not raised… Read more »
The problem with the good fish-bad fish method of church management is that is does not allow for forgiveness. A person is only accepted until they make a mistake at which point they are rejected; this can happen is as little as four days. A church that does not teach nor allow forgiveness is not a true church of Christ.
I am not a criminal and I do not like criminals. Individuals who willing lie, cheat, and steal; or seek to hurt others for their personal pleasure need to be incarcerated. I am not a fan of criminality either; books, video games or movies that glorify the criminal lifestyle are not found in my house. I do know how to create fans of criminality though, because I saw it done in the Prescott congregation with the baptizing of a convicted sex offender on parole. Once this 20 year old man was baptized he was loved bombed by the teacher and… Read more »
Narcissism is a great weakness and easily exploited by the wicked. The narcissist is in love with themselves so to deceive them you simply start dressing and acting like them; the narcissist will only see their reflection of themselves in the deceivers behavior and become blind to the true nature of the deceiver. I watched this happen in Phoenix with DS the man who started Prescott and the former drug addict, RR. The self admitted former drug addict saw that the teacher was a self employed handyman so the former drug addict also became a self employed handy man, (this… Read more »
Just found this blog and I haven't been able to stop reading. For so long I thought I was alone. My story is much like those who have posted. The church did not help my faith in any way. I moved to the redwood forest and realized God is bigger than the church. I wanted to reach out to two individuals who have posted. One being Marci. I was with you in Montana in 1988-89. When the church was crude and down right mean to me, you showed the love of God to me and my children. As a young… Read more »
I'm glad you saw some true followers of Christ within the church, and im5glad you've found your way out. I pray that your relationship with God after "Stanton" improves greatly. As alluded to by Anonymous 11:51 below this post, it's important to understand the 3 categories of content you'll find here. 1) Historical/factual information about this sect (pages linked in main navigation menus); 2) Opinion articles (blog posts); 3) Mostly unmoderated comments from former members, children of members, and potentially a few current members. Please take from this resource what you can, and ignore the rest. May God bless you… Read more »
Welcome Sherry D! You will find everything on this blog, the good and the evil, the bitter and the happy, the righteous and the unrighteous. Take the good you can find and discard the bad. Everyone reads this blog both active and inactive members of the church, so realize what you post is talked about in the churches. I was under a wicked false teacher in Phoenix who had no mercy for anyone but himself, even ran his wife into the ground with his ambitions. Today I am stronger despite my experiences under oppression. I have learned not to let… Read more »
I am encouraged, and uplifted by the post that I have read. I want to take this opportunity to share some questions that I asked both my mom, who is still a active COC member as well as the former Albany Ga COC..which never got answered and I was accused of asking "trapping questions". My questions were not meant to be trapping, only to gain a understanding after I went into the word of God for myself instead of believing what I was taught my whole life as a COC child. (1.) I was surprise to see so many married… Read more »
Hi Mommyuv4. First of all, your questions were completely legitimate. For numbers 1 thru 5 you are absolutely correct and had the scriptures to back it up! They are wrong! The cult is only trapped by your questions because in order for them to uphold their beliefs that don’t line up with the bible they have to ignore and reject other scriptures that prove their teaching is false. If they allow people to confront them with scriptures that prove their teaching is false and made up, that threatens their belief that they only are the chosen with the possibility of… Read more »
Romans 14 is a good chapter to review.