This site is a history of a small group of churches I call the Stanton Churches of Christ after the congregation started in my hometown of Stanton, CA. However, the sect originated as a church split led by Merie Weiss from Spring Valley in the 1960’s. The photo above is where the Spring Valley congregation has met since I was a child. Note that the commentary here is probably not applicable to most mainline CoC or even ICoC churches. I pray this information helps someone understand and discover or recover faith in a loving God.
The history of what we sometimes refer to here on this blog as the SCOC starts with Merie. She was “withdrawn from” by East San Diego Church of Christ in 1958 for “sowing seeds of discord” and “causing division.” She became very good at that throughout the rest of her life.
While her home church eventually became Spring Valley Church of Christ on Grand Avenue, very few churches that have “Church of Christ” on the
door are affiliated with this sect. I call it the “Stanton Church of Christ” only because the Stanton congregation is where I grew up. It was the first “church plant” of Spring Valley, started about the time I was born shortly after my dad’s job was transferred by American Airlines from San Diego to LAX.
While many mainline Churches of Christ still struggle with legalism at some level, it is important not to paint them all with this brush. Stanton is a particularly divisive and militant sect, some would say a cult, given their leadership style of using fear and intimidation to control people.
This blog is purely about this small network of churches that largely exists off the radar of mainline Churches of Christ and Christendom in general. The Stanton church still exists today (although I hear they meet in Westminster, California now), but my reference to the “Stanton Churches of Christ” is used broadly to include all 30 or so affiliated churches.
So how do you know if you or a family member are part of this particular group? Here are some identifying characteristics:
- They don’t advertise,
purchase buildings or put up conspicuous signs. As far as I know, only Spring Valley (the mother ship) owns their own building. The rest rent space and rarely use signage of any sort. - They don’t invite the public to their Sunday “worship services” because that is considered “for the saints” only.
- The way they recruit is through an organized campaign of knocking on doors (what they call “The Work” or “Personal Work”).
- The first invitation to learn about the group is to what they call a “Non-Member’s Class.” Back when I was growing up, they actually called it the “Alien Sinner’s Class!” By educating new members through this channel, they are not scared away by some of the more strange practices of the group, like public confession on Sunday mornings.
- They have a period of public confession on Sunday morning where members stand up and ask forgiveness for sins they think they committed in the previous week. These sins range from legitimate offenses to outrageously benign things like a woman not wearing nylons on Sunday, or a woman visibly shaking her head to pass on the Lord’s Supper.
- They won’t take the Lord’s supper if they believe they haven’t “taken care of” a particular sin.
- They regularly refer to a select few “Teachers” as authoritative, but they won’t admit they have any authority. They simply defer to whatever “counsel” and “judgment” these “Teachers” have to offer for any particular question they are approached with.
- Last I heard, there were two Evangelists shared by the network (“brotherhood”) of churches: Gary Preman and Tom Cornforth. Gary dates back as far as I can remember in the sect. Tom also goes back a long time, but I never knew him personally, so I can’t say how long he’s been around.
- The most prominent Teacher in the group has for many years been Kim Smith, a convert of Merie Weiss.
How do you know the church’s claims are wrong? Fortunately, they make that easy by claiming to be the One True Church. When you make that claim, you better have pretty sound doctrine to back it up. You just need one error to bring down the house of cards.
I have no intention of bashing members, teachers, or evangelists associated with the church. I simply want to provide a historical record of this church and a reasoned exposition of its many extra-Biblical rules. You’ll notice that I rarely call out individuals here, because I’m not interested in making personal attacks; only reasoned Bible studies. Feel free to engage in the vibrant community of readers here via the comment section, or correspond with me privately if you wish.
The truth doesn’t need to be afraid of a lie, so no one should be afraid of reading the truth of this group’s teachings. Unfortunately, they prefer to be very secretive about their true beliefs and practices, which is why you find no members in good standing, leaders or otherwise, coming onto these pages to discuss, reason, or defend. They typically hide behind anonymity, and try to assassinate my character or the character of those commenting about their experiences in the sect.
However, as much as we might disagree on theology and doctrine, I have no desire to post anything here that is untrue in any way. I take seriously my commitment to correct any factual errors I may have inadvertently made on this site. If you feel something I’ve written is factually incorrect, please contact me to point out why you think so.
God bless,
Kevin Harper
208-249-8893
The option of "Anonymous" allows us to speak without anyone having any preconceived ideas about us and shields us from anyone bringing up our past. We all have one, don’t we. I choose not to be “Anonymous” My past has the good, bad and ugly. I pray that you can learn something from it. I am a past member, teacher, evangelist of this sect, who is currently withdrawn from. For me it all started when my high school friend took me to a Der Wienerschitzel, where he introduced me to my wife to be. She invited me to a class… Read more »
Thanks for your courage in speaking up, Matt–name and all. Good words, fitly spoken, brother.
Matt. Bravo brother. May your voice be heard. I can relate to so much of what you have said. Please continue to post.
2nd Post I am thankful for this page and the FB page that allows different ones to "get things off their chest" and lets us communicate together. This is way overdue. However… all of the anger, hatred, foul language and bitterness, I will not agree with. But I pray that in time we can all work through it. I know it has taken me a long time to get to where I am today and my journey is not done. God deserves a lot of praise for is long suffering with us. There will be times in our lives, which… Read more »
3rd Post because it was to long to all be in my 2nd post. Here is something to take note of… They believe that one of the "ear-marks" of them being the only true church is their belief that are led by the Holy Spirit into all truth and he keeps them united. It is also important to note that they believe and are convinced that everyone else is lost. All other churches of Christ are referred to as the “off Churches” “Congregations that have had their candlestick removed” (Rev 2:5) therefor they believe God no longer recognized them as… Read more »
Well said, Matt. We're all trying to walk a very fine line here between exposing the truth of this sect and being respectful and showing our love for them so we don't do to them what they do to others. It's difficult to cover these subjects without sounding bitter or resentful, because it is so negative and dark, but as God is my witness, he can look inside my heart and won't find bitterness in me, only sadness that these things even need to be discussed. Yet there is no doubt in my mind that they do. I think Andrea… Read more »
Matt, I love your 3rd post, because my heart is not in reforming the organization, but the hearts of those in it. If we stay focused on that task, whatever God wants to happen with the organization and power structure will happen in time.
God bless, and give my sister a big hug for me. I love her in spite of our differences. 🙂
4th Post I will start this post by saying that in my beginning; every new convert was questioned on masturbation and taught it was wrong. I might add that I still believe that we need to refrain from such behavior. Now, another day, I will never forget. March 11th 1998. This is the day my Dad passed away suddenly with a heart attack. On this day I was at Sam's Club shopping when my phone rang with my Mom on the other end of the phone. In her emotional pain she told me what had happened. Two months prior she… Read more »
I'm so happy that Kevin has exposed this cult, it's has caused so much damage, anger, there's so much reproach they have caused many to stumble.First hand, I know they are sincere, that is why it's important, we love them, and pray that something that is put on these pages will "open " their eyes to the Truth.I appreciate the boldness, as I start, opening up the wounds inflicted, it's not to keep an account of wrongs, but a place to start forgiving, and moving forward.Many more than any of us can imagine, were affected by the imposter church started.… Read more »
Thank you Anon 12:07. Yes, I've seen firsthand how many have stumbled as a result of the oppressive, unbiblical doctrines.
I've also been blessed to have a window seat to see God walking people out of the wilderness of these teachings of men, and that is SO encouraging to me. There are stories I want to share, but I can't yet, because they're not mine to tell. But believe me, amazing testimonies are being written by the hand of God right now.
God is good. Greater is he that is for us than he that is against us.
Sweetheart (Erin) you are right about Matthew 8. That’s just what I was taught and the way they applied it to me was cruel and wrong. I believe they have changed that teaching and application to Matthew 8 also. Another event I will never forget… My withdrawal. It was on a Thursday night after our non-member class. My wife and I walked in with some non-members, right about the time the class was supposed to start. Immediately the preacher and a lady took me into a back room to talk with me. They told me that after the non-member class… Read more »
Matt, I agree with you about the May meeting being unscriptural. It's unreal how the church criticizes all of the other denominations for having governing bodies that make decisions at special 'conventions' and then turns around and does exactly what they condemn others for doing. I am so glad your story is out in the open for others to read because it is so blatantly wrong to have been withdrawn from and falsely accused and not allowed to answer for yourself. Withdrawal is so horribly abused.
Matt, thanks for sharing your story. I'd heard it but forgotten it, and it's so helpful to have stories shared on the blog here. The evidence showing their abuse of power is just overwhelming.
Most importantly, I know it's encouraging to a lot of people to see others who have moved past their experiences in the wilderness of this church and found a much deeper relationship with God.
Thanks for sharing your stories Matt. I've said it before, but reading all these stories being shared are helpful to me to better learn about the reasonings behind my upbringing. It's almost similar to people who research their anscestry lines. "If you don't know your history, you're doomed to repeat it". I think that through this blog, it is easier to see how bound people in the CoC are. It's easier for those who are not in the CoC to show love towards them and to be more encouraging to them. I've been extremley humbled by this site. To hear… Read more »
Mckenzie, you said: "Before, I was frustrated with people who are still in the CoC but that frustration has changed to compassion." That's what motivates me! I'm so saddened by them being bound by so many rules of men that they can't see God loving and pursuing them at every turn. It's our job to be Christ to them.
Thank you McKenzie, very good points. I can't stand it when people try to bind things on me that are their own preferences. I think that's a major lesson I've learned – to be able to distinguish what a preference of someone else's is, a preference of mine is, and what God's word says (or doesn't address) on whatever the subject matter is. Of course I have a lot to learn. So far I've been able to stop and question some of those things that bother my conscience without blindly following and I am grateful. God has made himself known… Read more »
6th Post There were two other days I will never forget. These two days happened several years after my withdrawal. Two of my boys, on different days, a few years apart from each other, were baptized into the congregation in Anchorage. They both, at their different times, meet up with me to tell me that they were going to get baptized. This might sound odd, but with both of my son's, we just cried and hugged each other. Neither one of them wanted to let me go. Those were the longest hugs ever. This was because, we both knew, that… Read more »
As you know you are not walking alone.We will always be connected to the Stanton Churches. But our church of Christ history tells the same stories of heartbreak, sacrifice, and loss all because we are lovers of truth. It will never change nor will it ever go away. Love you brother.
I'm confused, are you saying our love for truth is what brings us the heartbreak, sacrifice, and loss? I believe the heartbreak, sacrifice and loss is because some have lost their love for truth and have put the doctrines and traditions (a.k.a. "judgments") of fallible men and women on a higher pedestal than the Word of God. I probably misunderstood your comment. 🙂
Brother Matt, my heart is so heavy for you and your sons, especially after reading about the circumstances of your withdrawal. If I could change only one thing about the church it would be that family members could have a relationship with each other no matter what state they are in, just like married people are allowed to do. I hope that one day you can be reunited with your sons. Your sons must be strong young men to chose to be baptized knowing they would have to be completely cut of from their Papa. Hopefully they will question what… Read more »
You are a strong man Matt; a loving husband and Papa. Prayers for your spirit to be strengthened and your pain to not cut so deeply. I couldn't imagine the phrase "time heals all wounds" to be applicable to these types of situations of separating family. Even though your sons have grown into men, they still need their Papa for grown man advice, for fathering advice, for marital advice, for sciptural advice, to continue to learn from you and bond with you. I still need my father and I am a grown woman. Couldn't imagine being restricted from talking to… Read more »
I think many of us had a love for the truth and a strong loyalty to God and to those that led us into the sect initially. Unfortunately overcoming evil with good became the opposite due to people that lust for power and the admiration of others but essentially are the worst type of busy bodies; taking scriptures out of context, adding and taking away from God's word and because of the continual use of evil surmising tactics to rebuke or teach people in class or worship. When you begin using your own mind and judgment based on right and… Read more »
Mckenzie Breaud?
Barbra's kid?
Tying down children is a practice that should be further discussed to answer a very important question: when the physical restraints were removed at or around 1979, did the psychological restraints remain? In other words, when they stopped tying them to their beds at night, did they really stop the compulsion? Did the abuse really stop? What about beatings, humiliation and oppression? One reason the bondage stopped was, "they could have been arrested for that." But did they realize where their hearts were? Did they realize their method, as it began in the early 70's, continued in its forced, compulsory… Read more »
Okay. Clarification. Older ones told us the 'tying down' amounted to oversized sweatshirts with long sleeves being tied in back. No tying to beds, no chains, no whips. But bad judgment nevertheless from bad teachers.
Trust me, some children were tied to their beds if the bed had a headboard or bunk bed post to tie their hands to and some children were pinned to their beds with safety pins. I have actually never heard of the 'sweatshirt' method but it doesn't surprise me.
Anonymous 7:08 Sounds like you're describing a straight jacket. Yikes.
Anon 3:37, you said: "Consider the chilling, hollow echo mimicked by teachers when followers were unjustly cast out, 'They wouldn't have continued anyway.'" I don't believe in "once saved always saved" but I remember the church's criticism of those who did. When presented with evidence of people who walked away from God, they would just dismiss it with "they were never true believers anyway." It's ironic how their defense is the same. It is as if no evidence contrary to their belief will ever be enough to convince them. Which brings me to the theory that the only thing that… Read more »
Kevin, I will be responding to you outside of this blog. After leaving the sect I spent a few years peeling off layers of Phariseeism and salvaging my marriage. We kept the family together, barely, and at great cost. For our local congregation, I prepared a year-long, biblical study on love, about 40 pages. You will have a copy to confirm we wish no harm or bitterness. I hope it will help you recognize our hope in Christ is the same. Unless love is in its rightful place as "the greatest of these," we stumble. We become a purification squad… Read more »
Anon 12:09, I will be excited to see your study of love! And for those who may think spending a year on the subject to be too much, consider the third verse of a song I've grown to love: Could we with ink the ocean fillAnd were the skies of parchment madeWere every stalk on earth a quillAnd every man a scribe by tradeTo write the love of God aboveWould drain the ocean dry;Nor could the scroll contain the wholeThough stretched from sky to sky It's so exciting to me when I hear of others who have walked out of… Read more »
Did you receive it?
Yes, I did, and I loved it. Your note brought tears to my eyes, thank you!
I sent an email "thank you" to the person who asked me for my address, and wanted to post it publicly, but I just couldn't find this thread. 🙂
God bless!
I would love to share your study on love with readers. If I scanned it, would it be OK to post as a download? I understand if the answer is no. I appreciate you taking the time and effort to share it with me!
You may and you must! God's love is meant for all mankind. Hopefully one day, everyone will see your true purpose is not to harm, but to uphold. You are a courageous Christian, Kevin; your love and concern for me brings tears to my eyes, also. I have suffered great emotional pain and distress. Love is the only cure, brother.
I agree Anon 9:45. I see Kevin upholding the whole truth; it's both enlightening and encouraging. I still struggle every day also so I cannot wait to see what you wrote about love being the cure. Thank you both.
I got the study on love scanned and uploaded. THANK YOU "I Am Anonymous" for your effort in writing the study and in reaching out to get a copy of it to me. I truly appreciate it!
I completely agree with what you are saying Anonymous 3:37 about the horrors of the past but I am honestly not sure what can be done about it now. Does the church shut down? What options are there? Also, is masturbation a sin and should it be prevented in children? I really want to know. Anybody??
Ok, Kevin correct me if I am wrong… I'm taking a stab at this masturbation question. There is a lot to say about this but I'll try to hit on the high points. Anything that we worship above God is an idol and God says have no idols. It doesn't matter if that idol is a particular version of the bible, we are to have no idols. In marriage masterbation can be an idol if it prevents the couple from coming together. It is also wrong if one in the marriage is not ok with it. Unless there is biblical… Read more »
Part 2… A person who does not repent of sin, fails to see sin in their life, and is not being sanctified is probably not a Christian, no matter what they tell you and whether they were baptized or not. There is nothing in the water to wash sin off. Sin is bound up in our hearts and water doesn't wash it away. There needs to be life change and that only happens with heart change, which is the work of God through belief in the finished work of Jesus Christ and dependence upon the Holy Spirit. I personally would… Read more »
Oops, I didn't put that reply where I wanted to. Kevin, can you please put my part 1/2 together? Thanks
Kevin are you uncomfortable with the subject of tying the children down? It occurred to me you may have been around at that time. If it's too hard to write about, we can drop it.
No, that never happened to me, thank God. I think we've established that it happened in some congregations, and I don't exactly know what can be done now about it other than forgiveness on the part of the victims and (I would hope) repentance on the part of the teachers and parents who followed those teachings. I mostly remember the public humiliations and speculations about men in general. Anyone who was a little different or socially awkward was suspected of it. My 4th grade teacher was pointed out to me as a "probable" sexual deviant. He had a little speech… Read more »
Kevin, a speech impediment was considered an "odd behavior" which to them was a sign of uncleanness. I saw a woman being accused of being a masturbator in front of the entire congregation because of it. The poor woman left and never came back. It was hypocritical because they taught that Moses could have had a speech impediment at that time. Also showed the lack of respect for the gospel because they didn't show the proper respect that should have been shown to an elderly woman. These holier-than-thou teachers/preachers/leaders pick and choose what scripture they will follow at the moment… Read more »
Wow, that is so heartbreaking. No human being should be subjected to evil surmising and slander like that, much less an elderly sister in Christ. Where's the remorse, the shame, the tears of repentance from those who did such things? All I see is defensiveness, minimizing it, and covering it up. If they were the "one true church" they would be less concerned with image and more concerned with people they've hurt. In fact, they'd improve their image if they showed more concern for the people they've hurt, instead of blaming the victims ("they were going to fall away anyway")… Read more »
Kevin, it is a typical characteristic of an abuser to point the finger at others when challenged. Often an abuser will become so totally irate they’ll throw into the mix numerous accusations (whether real or imagined) against you thereby detracting from what they have done and winning just by virtue of how many wrongs you have allegedly done. In this way they have justified their own actions (it’s always someone else’s fault). If that’s not working for them they’ll even resort to the role of victim temporarily (as long as it serves their purpose) which also will distract you from… Read more »
I was in the kitchen of a main teacher's house. There was a non-member spouse there who witnessed things in the early days. The person broached the subject of bondage – right out of the blue. It kind of freaked me out…very awkward. I think the person was trying to knock something off its pedestal. One of the heavies was nearby and quckly got wind of the conversation – this was one of the highest teachers. They couldn't do anything with the non-member so they turned the fury upon me, like it was my fault for not shutting down the… Read more »
Anon 12:33, thank you, and yes, the bondage thing is totally freaky. I can see why they would try to cover it up. The following audio snippet comes from a May Meeting discussion, I believe, and shows a clear intent to avoid criticism by keeping the teachings of the church from being indexed by search engines and exposed for the "wrong eyes" on the Internet. I have no doubt that Paul would have loved for each and every one of his sermons to be published in audio and written form, word for word, on the Internet, if he'd had such… Read more »
The soundbite is from the sect tekkie, ex-military. Prominent ex-military higher-ups taught in Maryland, Virginia, Spring Valley, Tennessee, and formerly in Chino. That's not a complete list, but a disproportionate number of top shelf May trip speakers seemed to speak on their military careers. A fitting segue from military service to hard religious discipline. In the military, you had better keep your mouth shut and suck it up, or you'll receive a dishonorable discharge…right?
I heard that in at least one congregation they used to tie kids to chairs in order to teach them how to sit until CPS was called in (decades ago) so they discontinued the practice.
Papa I think it is safe to say that Matthew 8 scripture was taken out of context. Seeing that Jesus was speaking to his disciple who He had just empowered to go out(to other towns by the way) and heal men. First of all Jesus had only a short time with his disciples, secondly the man could have easily meant his father was old and close to death so let me wait around till he dies. Saddens me to see the hurt it caused our family at the time, well still is a tender spot. But God is good and… Read more »
I felt so alone all these years. Under different circumstances, many of us would have been life long friends in this life journey. To encourage and come alongside one another as we raised our kids and experienced the trials the Lord has allowed to refine us. Honestly, I am not even 100% sure what I was withdrawn from for! I think it is because I was asked if I had unclean thoughts and I admitted I had a dream of a guy at work who just kissed me IN THE DREAM! Matt…..I'm so sorry. I was gone by the time… Read more »
Thanks Teresa, for your voice and the voices of those like you who have lived through this firsthand and found the path out of it.
It has been 30 years since I was baptized. From the ages of 12 to 19 I was looking for someone to tell me the truth. I moved from Philadelphia, PA to Tacoma, WA and this group knocked on my door and told me the truth. I attended a bible class on a Thursday night and I immediately got baptized upon hearing God's words. I was so happy that my soul was finally right with God. Little did I know the years of trial, affliction and abuse that would come. I am now worshiping within the main fold and have… Read more »
I'm glad you escaped the abuse, and have not given up on God altogether. The fact that you spent 30 years in it means you probably have a lot of thing to unlearn. I was raised in it and I know I did. I'll pray for you and your journey out of the abusive doctrines.
Dear Anon 10/19 2:07PM, I understand. I felt the same way. I was ecstatic thinking I had found “the truth.” Little did I know the persecution, falsehoods and abandonment I would experience under the guise of “love” would come directly from Christians. I’m so glad you found believers that are able to share true love that you so deserve. Please take all of the time you need to continue to heal. At some point, when you are ready, I hope you share your story on this blog. May God continue to nurture you and heal you. There is no greater… Read more »
Ona may 20th I was marked and avoided and cast out repentence would not be found and I was told I was going to hell.
I really dont know what I did. I confessed to everything and I know I made my heart right but it was not good enough for my teachers.On may 20Th 2009 when they marked and avoided me I knew it was happening before they told me. It really hurt me bad but at the time something truly wonderful happened that I cannot begin to explain with words. I have learned so much within 5 years. God has really been there for me and taught me through this.
I have tried to set my words in order to explain to you what this church has done to me and my family. It has really put an emotional scar that I cannot rid myself of. I feel as if it was done on purpose to me and not because I had done anything wrong really that could not have been forgiven. Two scriptures come to mind when I remember the day I was marked and avoided. I remember his mouth moving and talking to me but my ears went deaf. His word could be heard, the sound that is,… Read more »
Thank you for sharing, Marilyn. May God bless you and I hope that the pain you've been put through has not been in vain. Are you from the Southern California area? You don't have to reply publicly, I'm just curious. You can email me if you'd like at kevinmharper@gmail.com.
Part of the abusiveness demonstrated by this sect which is so cult-like is the hierarchies attempt to have complete and total control of information/communication. And oddly enough gossip and slander is fed to the hierarchies via its members and then spread to others in power. Once you're targeted for withdrawal, because those in charge no longer look favorably on you, it's quite possibly only a matter of time before you'll be withdrawn from. They will be on high alert to find something to accuse you of no matter how unscriptural or ridiculous it is. They still totally misuse the use… Read more »
there is also another scripture I forgot to put in because I got a little depressed when remembering things. But for so many years they became my family. A real family to me. We did everything together and I had fellowships at my house and I never wanted to be around anyone except them. I even had my blood family reject me all except my mother who no matter what did not turn away from me. She tried softly and lovingly to get me to listen to Charles Stanley with her but I would not. I rebuked my own mother… Read more »
No I live in Tampa, Fl. I lived in Pensacola, Fl and was baptized in 1993. I was marked and avoided in 2009 for talking to a teacher who was marked and avoided. I questioned the paid preacher system. I also went straight to someone. instead of going to my teachers.
12If an enemy were insulting me, I could endure it; if a foe were rising against me, I could hide. 13But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, 14with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship at the house of God, as we walked about among the worshipers. I had asked for forgivesness and I examined myself over and over for months. I studied so much I made books out of it. I spent long days and nights going through the concordance and trying to ask my teachers who either would not return my calls or… Read more »
And then it occurred to me. I had read the bible several times over. I could be asked a question or ask myself a question and immidiatley I a verse came. My own mind began to put this verse with that verse like a puzzle. I began to notice God was teaching me. I began to realize that I did not need to see forgivesnss from man but from God. I realized I did not need any man to teach me but God. I needed no book except my bible. Instead of judging people who were speaking to me I… Read more »
One thing is that I never did is walked away from God. I am still with him. Even after this church marked and avoided me and cast me out. I got up right away and went to a Baptist church right down the street. I became afraid because they seemed to laxed so I went to a church of Christ and was baptized again but it had to be redone there because my toe was sticking up in my baptism. I began listening to Charles Stanley at this same time and I knew there was something even wrong with this… Read more »
THANK YOU for sharing your testimony, Marilyn. I am thrilled to hear that you have not walked away from God after your experience!
Marilyn, thank you so much for sharing your testimony. I know many of us can relate to much of what you said. God bless you sister!
Kevin as a general correction, public confession can be done before and after any bible classes, before and after first Friday session if the confession you feel be directly affected to first Friday, and so thus, and also done before personal work if the public sin you feel directly affect to personal work. and of course on Sunday. At least that's how it was done where I attended.
Yes, that sounds right, now that you mention it. I may have oversimplified it by implying it was a Sunday-only practice.
I am a bit late in posting this, but I have wanted to do a little searching myself, as far as reasons behind their beliefs: I know birth control is a very controversial topic among the church. I was just having a conversation about it with my mother, who is a current member of the Stanton Church of Christ. We were talking about their beliefs on spacing your children and how it must be done naturally. She claims that my father has done research as to whether the pill actually prevents ovulation, or it kills the released egg. I began… Read more »
1) I know committed believers on both sides of the birth control question. My best advice is to study it for yourself (both the science and the Bible), pray about it, and "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind," which is the same advice I'd give for any subject that is not black and white spelled out in the Bible. We may each have passionate opinions, and good Biblical reasons for thinking them…but if God didn't specify it, we cannot and should not bind our opinion on someone else. That said, my personal conviction is that children… Read more »
Dear 'Birth Control Questions',
Could you please share the information you have gathered about birth control? I have only heard one side of the argument and I'm curious to hear what you have found.
I look forward to hearing other people share their thoughts on this. To expand on my reasoning above, I think it's interesting to think about the responsibility aspect of having children, particularly for the husband in the marriage. I believe the husband has a moral duty to provide for the needs of his family, but everyone always talks about this as a money issue. That's only a small part of the picture. I have 7 kids, 6 of whom are teens or adults now…so I have some perspective on this. I can assure anyone reading this that the financial responsibility,… Read more »
There was a prominent teacher, who is no longer in the church, who was accused of making things they were teaching as a law of Christ. The church is still doing this today. It is being taught from the pulpit and I even had sermon steered towards me on this to where I was told I was not a "man of God" for not accepting it. What was being taught was that a Christian can show up at your house any time they want without notice. If you declare that you would rather have the visitor call first to see… Read more »
We know that murmuring is a sin and a withdrawable offense. I got counsel from one of the evangelist's wives only to be castigated for following it by a preacher in a sermon. When this was brought to light to the other preachers and the evangelist it was not even considered. I had no status amongst the preachers and it seemed like they watched each others' backs. What's interesting is that evangelist said in one of his talks that he took a police officer to court over a traffic infraction that he believed was not just only to have the… Read more »
@Lynn 10:16, the subject of "withdrawal" is grossly misunderstood and practices by most churches, especially the Stanton churches. Please post your reasons for thinking that "murmuring" is a "withdrawable" offense.
How supportive are your preachers and teachers? My were not happy with me that I would not counsel with them. I didn't because they would deny that things they said were ever said. They denied it to me and to and evangelist in front of other preachers and teachers. This and many other things were happening, yet nobody would do anything about it and nobody sat down nor was made to sit down. How many times have we seen people take things out of context or do a rebuking/bring out in class things that were distorted or didn't have all… Read more »
Lynn, are you still in the Stanton Churches of Christ?
Yes, I am. I know that the COC is correct in their base beliefs and teachings, but I also believe that people can hold the gospel in unrighteousness. Anybody who knows about the history of the congregations throughout the brotherhood can a test that there have been many over the past 30+ who have been rebuked, sat down, withdrawn from, and even pushed out, like what happen in 2001, So, why is it so hard to believe that is could still happen? First you have to ask yourself why would I allow my self to treat the people of God… Read more »
How much money does Gary Preman make from the church? What I was told was this: Bruce Gordon a former member worked as a construction manager and received a 25,000 bonus for completion of a project. It was said that with his bonus he could support the evangelist on his own. So about 25,000 a year, but Gary does not accept gifts as some have tried to give him extra checks and he has return them. Gary does not accept support from church who question the scriptural basis for paying a man for preaching and has returned support checks telling… Read more »
The criticism of Gary Preman was not that he was supported as an evangelist, but that he has remained in the same congregation for over 30 years. The idea being that an evangelist would go where needed, establishing NEW congregations and then move on, which he obviously has not done for decades.
Wow Kevin must be away for the holidays and left his blog ungaurded. Okay then how about a post on why I love God? I am always in need of wisdom being a fool. Like a man in the desert craves water, or a hungry man craves food I crave wisdom. In Mathew 25:1-13 is the parable of the ten virgins and God gave me an understanding this week that the bridegroom can be any worthwhile desire, like the desire for a wife, or a good job, etc and the five wise virgins were wise because they were prepared, and… Read more »
I don't understand the above statement by Anonymous 6:19. Was there something written that was later deleted?
No phone numbers and personal attacks please. Sorry, I was engrossed in work and didn't check the comment feed for awhile.
Kevin. I'm a outsider of sorts, my only association With the church happens to be my spouse's parent. I hear the stories of the wrong doings of the church and the lack of freedom the members have. You can understand how I find this particular sect a cult. I have a question?Could a non member (someone in my situation) be "ousted" or no longer able to be saved? How I am understanding everything is that if I become ousted (which would not hurt my feelings) my spouse's parent would no longer be allowed to associate with me, which by default… Read more »
Sorry I didn't see this question until now. No, they cannot and will not oust or disfellowship you if you are not first a member. But if anyone in the group gets disfellowshipped, others in good standing wouldn't be allowed to get together socially or eat with them.
Hard on sin or soft on sin? In the 1980's the Phoenix congregation started eating in their building on Sunday's and the evangelist from Spring Valley CA came in and just chewed the congregation out for this sin. Some years later under a teacher from the failed Albuquerque church the congregation started eating in their building again but this time the evangelist simply said you saw it and took care of it. It was a marked shift from hard on sin to soft on sin and some were quite shocked at this change. Nothing was ever said as to why… Read more »
It's possible that the relaxing of some of the harsher rules over the years is in response to the pressures of parenting teens. However these changes are welcome, in my opinion, regardless of the motivation.
Hopefully you don't really consider eating in the building to be a "sin." If so, please share your thoughts on it.
MY NAME IS TITUS PETERS. MY MOM HAS BEEN A CURRENT MEMBER FOR 35 PLUS YEARS. BUT I HAVE NEVER BEEN A MEMBER & NEVER WILL BE. I WANT TO THANK EVERYBODY FOR THEIR STORIES & INFORMATION. A LOT OF PAIN, GOD BLESS ALL OF YOU.
Hi Titus, welcome!
All religion is a man's or woman interpetation of the written word: because God does not speak directly to man. The Stanton churchs of christ follow the interpetations of Merie Weiss. If God gives you an understanding of the scriptures that differs from the official held understandings (of Merie Weiss) it is best to keep it to yourself.
I assume you mean "if you want to remain in good standing with Stanton hierarchy." Otherwise, I think we should speak out. 🙂
Yes that is exactly what I was implying. I left the Church of Christ in Phoenix because it no longer had any of the ten identifying marks on a new testament COC. I was deeply disturbed at the lack of boundaries especially when it came to spanking children. I found out after the fact that many of the "brethren" had been spanking my children without my knowledge of permission. My third daughter the day after being babysat by "mother Marylin" had a bruise across her buttocks in a straight line. I thought maybe she fell backwards and hit the edge… Read more »
One of the false teachings of "the one true church" is the unwritten commandment: Thou shalt not reprove the evangelist from spring valley, only God reproves him. This is a great lack of love as he is human and in need of reproof like all other humans. Teachers see him do things wrong and say nothing leaving sin on his soul, and this is love? The evangelist has murmured and nobody corrects him. He has made statements before giving judgement like "Is he a good christian?" This implies that there is "bad" christians, this is expressing dissatisfaction with his brethern;… Read more »
I'm not going to get involved in church politics and calling for certain actions to happen against certain people. I have to operate on the assumption that the leaders' of this sect have good motives and sincerely believe they are instruments for executing God's will. This is a scary place to be as a fallible human. Rather than point to all the problems with individuals, however (because we all stand condemned and are in equal need of the grace of God), I'd like us to keep reminding ourselves that reform is not something that has to take place in the… Read more »
well I am not a member of this church but am a child of it. I feel bad for all the people that comment here because ur on ur way to hell and you have nothing better to do but vent about how you strayed from god. As to marie wise, She branched off because the original church taught against a lot of thing that had no basis. True the church was oppressive but when it was brought to the attention of the church it was fixed.As to the May meetings they are not meeting where the "authority" discuss what… Read more »
Your statements are very harsh, you are missing out on the love of God. God is very merciful and kind consider the thief on the cross, a man who deserved no mercy but received it when asked. The COC does not practice the commandment found in John 13:34 to love one another; this is heresy by omission. You are missing out child on the best part of Christianity.
Anon 10:36, so you defend the church as a child of it, but you are not a member of it? Why is that? Your opinions of the church and of Matthew are heavily distorted from reality. You say: "As to marie wise, She branched off because the original church taught against a lot of thing that had no basis." That may have been what you've been told, but it's not the truth. Actually, *she* taught against things that had no basis, and *they* didn't go along with it. She caused division in the brotherhood over it and they "withdrew" from… Read more »
Anon 6:10, well said. "You are missing out child on the best part of Christianity."
The worst victims of the oppression in the COC was and still is the children. The children suffered the physical abuse in many of the congregations, and also suffered the verbal abuse as well. Today some of them are adults and have never known love at all, not parental love, and not spiritual love. They come to this blog for a reason: to find the love they never received as children. I open my heart and hands to these seeking souls and tell them that they will be loved and treated decently here. Let us do our duty as Christians… Read more »
Anon 6:35, amen and thank you for your voice. We need to keep reminding ourselves that this blog is not about winning arguments but ministering to hearts who have been soured to the love and grace of God.
Brethren be aware that the child of the church is simply repeating what is being said in the home. I put out some strong reproof against child abuse and bigotry here on this blog and it got to the people it was meant for. God's word does not return void, you get an answer back. The Christians conscience have been pricked and they are murmuring to their teenage children about it and the child is trying to defend their parents. Are we all going to hell who post on here? The evangelist from Spring Valley has posted on here is… Read more »
What proof do you have that the evangelist from S.V. posted on here?
I, for one, have not turned my back on God. I pray to him every day and keep his commandments. If you read my story you will see that oppression has not been fixed. Especially in the congregation I am from. When my health turned for the worst I was constantly castigated for years for not doing as much as the congregation thought I could. I was no novice, nor a babe. Because I couldn't live up to others' expectations I was constantly confronted by people, classes and sermons were filled with me being the subject, and it was even… Read more »
What was my crime? After seven discs in my back dying, three compressed discs, sciatica, degenerative disc disease, degenerative arthritis, and scoliosis kept me from a lot of classes and looking to looking to my brethren for a phone call every once in a while to share with me the classes I missed. My crime was not living up to their specification (I was always compared to other people), I wasn't pushing the flesh like most people were telling me to do, and the fact that I didn't like hearing it all the time (whenever I would call to say… Read more »
this is the last time I will look at this blog, God probably doesn't like that I did what I did. Kevin do you and matthew go to the same church? probably not, so where is the divine conection. as TO WHOEVER SAID THAT WE CHILDEREN RECIEVCE ABUSE IS WRONG. I have never been abused, spanked yes but not abused and I have talked to kids from several congregations about how they get treated and all r positive. The things written on this blog are all lies or at least things that happened 30 years ago. I hope that one… Read more »
Dear Child of the Church: I am going to back you on your belief. A good part of my life was spent in the Church he is judging and so many of the writings in this blog are very dishonest. There is a ring of truth to the comments but with a twist. If you try to correct the 'twist' you are met with Kevin Harper's swift correction and a barrage of scriptures to back him. I have seen this kind of reaction given by many other religions when debating the Stanton Churches. Their teachings are right on spot. Their… Read more »
@Concerned are you a current member? Can you enlighten as as to some "dishonesty" on the blog? I'm talking about articles and blog posts I've written. The only power I have over comments is to delete inappropriate comments and engage conversation with people who disagree. I've made every attempt to do that respectfully and biblically, even when certain commenters are intent on avoiding any scriptural discussion. I haven't shut down any conversation here simply because someone disagrees with me. That's what SCOC does, not me. I've asked since the beginning of this blog for SCOC to engage in an open,… Read more »
Child abuse is one of the Goliaths in "the one true church". I saw a preacher in Boise Idaho withdrawn from for verbally abusing his children calling them "stupid" and "Dummy" and words to that effect. One of his daughters came to live in Phoenix and was part of the church here. She was a Christian and had a four year old boy out of wedlock (prior to becoming a Christian) She would correct her son by flicking him in the upper lip and did this publicly and even encouraged other Christians to do the same. I tried to give… Read more »
One overlooked part of child abuse in the church is the silence of the spouses as it was being committed. How do these "Christian" women stand there in silence and watch their babies being abused by the "Christian" fathers? The laws of the land would hold these spouses responsible when they do nothing to protect their babies. This is one of the oppressions of "the one true church" the teachers and preachers will handle the abuse.(and nothing was done to stop it) I have children who were abused by "grandmother" Christians during babysitting and today as adults some of my… Read more »
O and kevin I am only a teenager so I am not accountable yet but when I am I will become a christen.
1) No one said all children in the church were abused. I was not abused. What's true is that some were, and that this abuse was on advice of teachers in the church. That is not even in question. That's a fact. 2) I can relate to your defensiveness of the church–I was just like you from my early teens to early 20's–basically until I had more Bible knowledge of my own from my own independent study of the scriptures. All I'm suggesting is that you do like Mary and "tuck these things away in your heart" for when you're… Read more »
I hope that the abuse has stopped, that child abuse is taught against. My children were abused by older christian women who were babysitting them. I never gave my permission for anyone to spank my children, they did this without my knowledge or consent. Whenever you bruise a child you have committed child abuse and should be dealt with accordingly. My other complaint is the double standard that exists one parent commits child abuse and is withdrawn from and another does the same thing and it is condoned. I am glad that you have not seen the abuse that I… Read more »
and lynn reading back I must tell that I receive more love from my family and the church then you can possibly imagine. Talk about insulting, telling me that I have not been loved. the only love I would get from the likes of you are little postcards. Keep your two cents to yourself and I don't care how old you are.All you guys talk about is how bad the church is( which it is not) and nothing about how crummy you r lives r now. bye and I will not be posting anything else on this blog again
1) Again, no one is telling you that you weren't loved. I was loved. But believe me, there were some kids who did not have a loving childhood as a result of the teachings and discipline practices of SOME church members, AS TAUGHT by the church hierarchy. That is a fact not even in dispute. 2) The point of this blog is to expose the unbiblical doctrines of the church, so of course the bulk of the content here is going to be about problems with the church. That doesn't make it a gripe session as long as the problems… Read more »
AnonymousApril 28, 2015 at 12:11 AM What post cards? I have sent no post cards or correspondence of any kind to anybody. I don't know who you are, nor have I ever said anything to you outside of this blog. One of the biggest things I have seen in the church is indifference and preferring. There are a lot of people who don't see or are subject to the lack of love some people have. Just because I don't see something happening doesn't mean that it didn't happen. In the congregation I belonged to there were some great Christians that… Read more »
Narcissistic personality involves a firm set of beliefs and attitudes of superiority, uniqueness, and being special; and in particular the idea that other people should recognize the same and defer to you. A narcissist personality leads to a person seeking and expecting constant attention and admiration from other often at others expense. The narcissist typically doesn't have much empathy for others feelings or rights with a basic justification that they are more important than others. I knew that there were unwritten rules in the COC and these are it. My teachers expected my constant attention and admiration of them; when… Read more »
Narcissism is alive and well. Very good diagnosis Anonymous at 7:17. I remember when I was 20 and I was really afraid I was a narcissist. But I do like giving others recognition. My church was the same. I had a problem when I was a young child in basketball with ball-hogging. For those unfamiliar with basketball, that means you don't pass the ball and you shoot it constantly. Basically it means selfish. Well, in the church there are a lot of spiritual ball-hogs. A lot of teachers who want all the glory, all the credit, and won't suffer anyone… Read more »
How I realized this was when they would display a discontent for my non compliance to whatever I knew was wrong teaching and/or instruction. I am no novice to Christianity and the scriptures and would not just blindly follow whatever I was told to do.
It seemed that you would lose favor if you didn't do whatever they told you to do. It would even build up to not taking teaching if you didn't do what they said and the way they said it.
ML, I agree with you in that if you are younger you have no status. I wasn't a preacher, at any time, but did a lot of studying and learned a lot. I love speaking the scriptures and found it hard to get close to the preachers and teachers. I didn't have their desired status. Remember the account of where Jesus sat with the sick and sinners. He said that they are the ones that needed the healing. I always saw it as the opposite of that in the church. If you were in need and/or were working on things… Read more »
I remembered listening to a Merie tape ( and I listened to many ). On this occasion she made a bold statement to the class that she was their Mother in Christ. I think it was my first year with the sect but I knew there was something wrong. I now know that this is true narcissism. I have studied ferociously for years. I have found nothing that alludes to a women bringing the Church out of the pit of hell. But I followed for years keeping everything to myself. But I was and still am in some respect a… Read more »
1 Timothy 5:1-2 Rebuke not an elder, but entreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; The elder women as MOTHERS; the younger as sisters.
This is why we call the church our family. The older men we respect as FATHERS, the younger women as SISTERS, we call the younger men BROTHERS, should we call that narcissistic? Or just in the case of Merie Weiss. Better get your motive straight.
False teaching, rampant child abuse, teacher worship, better open your eyes pharisee.
Concerned on July 15,1 Timothy is full of wonderful principles to live by. However Merie expressed that she was the Mother in the faith with the sense that she had no peers. So the principals written to Timothy so many years ago are not applicable to her because the only elder to her is Christ himself and any under her are simply children. I'm not trying to bash Merie and I do apologize if it sounds that way. I believe through listening to her audio tapes that she suffered from narcissism. As Forest Gump would say "That's all I got… Read more »
Hey anon at 8:26pm, I'm so glad that you spoke up and asked concerned why he/she questioned your motive. It puzzled me too, and I had to ask "where did that come from?"In my dealings with ones in the Stanton group, I would find that they used this technique quite often. When you questioned something, they would turn it around onto you. Suddenly, it was all about you and your sin/problem.Concerned, I'm not saying that is what you did, or that that is your motive. I'm only asking "where did that come from?" Ones were discussing narcissism and was it… Read more »
Concerned at 10:24: I can understand what you are saying about ones being considered as mothers to those of us who are younger in the faith. And perhaps Merie did see herself as a mother, and looked at ones who came into the Stanton group as if they were indeed her children. But what I saw while I was in Portland was that she was referred to as "Mother Merie", and it was said with the same kind of reverence as when Catholics would refer to "Mother Theresa". And some of those who would say "Mother Merie" never knew her.When… Read more »
Concerned;
Again I am done with the narcissism point but I am eagerly awaiting your response to what you surmise my motives are? Sincerely,
The comment "better get your motive straight" comes from an arrogant mind and not the conscience mind. The arrogant have a superiority complex and this is one way of showing their superiority. In Pr 8:13 it says that the fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride , arrogancy, and the evil way and the froward mouth do I hate. Hate arrogancy in yourself first, keep your self humble, say what is necessary but do not try and get the last word in, or make the last backbiting remark to show your superiority. Scripture is enough to correct arrogancy… Read more »
Save this council for anon 8:26.
This church should be stopped. I was raised in the Charlotte NC congregation. We were forced to live poor and broke. We went without a lot of stuff. Barley having enough money to put food on the table. The church didn't let women work so my mom couldn't help with bills. My dad lost a lot of jobs because he couldn't work the hours they needed him to, due to church duties. The only people who lived good was the family's who didn't have both parents in the church and of course the evangelist. The church paid for them to… Read more »
Respectfully disagree. If you read Ben Franklins almanac, he is very clear that "an investment in knowledge pays the best dividends", and that if you take care of the pence the pounds will take care of themselves. Time is money, so to waste time is the greatest crime. Poverty is only the result of not pursuing knowledge and wisdom and applying it. "In all labor there is profit" is a truth that is eternally true. Work is not just showing up for a job, work means doing all you can to make yourself indispensable to a company, and to learn… Read more »
Dear Stanton church in Boise, Hope this letter finds you well. We are in our Sunday evening class on the topic of pride. This is very reproving for me, as I see I have so much since I became a Christian. We are all examining ourselves because we have had many dry classes lately. The preacher had a very good lesson about how to effectively fight sin. We have to always be vigilant, and must never give up, and we must defeat it. Well, I have to get back to class now, look forward to seeing you at the upcoming… Read more »
I miss visiting the Boise congregation. There are some great Christians there.
This church can and will be stopped, purely by educating people before new members get steeped in the faulty doctrine. Their churches will die out. Millennials in particular Google everything before trying it…so aside from children of members, I think we have a good chance of reaching most people considering "joining."
Anonymous at 5:27 I partially agree with you, but poverty is not a bad thing. The arrogant have nothing stopping them from destroying others, except poverty. If the arrogant had more money and time they could destroy many more lives, but because they lack the resources and are forced to spend most of there time working to feed themselves and their families they are not able to dominate others to their hurt. Therefore I find poverty a good thing and necessary to control the arrogant who have no boundaries and respect no one else's boundaries; (poverty does not hurt them… Read more »
I'd like to ask your forgiveness Kevin as well as everyone on this site for a post I posted back in March of this year concerning they way my teacher and preacher corrected me..I was totally out of line for my murmuring and complaining heart..and even coming to this site to in my mind at the time to ask a question..I ask your forgiveness for those things
1995, it was a fateful year. Due to Peter's strong temperament, which relied upon reason and not blind allegiance, he was privileged to be able to live with the preacher of his church, and had to leave his parents. Peter's parents did a wonderful job raising him and his siblings, as they gave their lives to bring him and his 17 siblings into the world. At the time, Peter's brain was not fully formed, and since his pre-frontal cortex, which is the reasoning part of the brain wasn't fully formed until 25, which was in 2004, understanding his situation was… Read more »
Thank you for this blog.. I have read everything twice over.. Years ago I searched for anything I could find and it's been three years now since I've searched for anything and I'm so happy to find this! It has made me feel so much better!
O
wow,I came to this site because of a young Christian that had a concerned,I know many of you personally,if you are honest with yourselves the things you claim were done to you by the church, the wrong the hurt, the damage,you did the exact same things to others,but god is faithful and has brought it full circle back to you,"good measure, pressed down,and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that you mete withal it shall be measured to you again." I could name a few things, but you know them… Read more »
Jehovah Witnesses did not abuse my children, members of the Merie Wiess sect did. I never knew Merie I was baptized in 1990 and I was told that she died in 1982. I expose many of the abuses that I saw and amazingly many others in different congregations suffered the same types of abuse, and I find comfort in knowing that I was not the only one to see and suffer the wrongs. We don't care much about this "little group", that is we do not attend their worships, their bible studies, or any of their meetings, we do not… Read more »
Where are you all going to church today? I'm going to try out a little community church. I hear they are really solid in the scriptures.
So Jim, how was the service at the community church you attended?
The lesson today was about bitterness. The most bitter herb is rue and is mentioned in Luke 11:42 as one of the herbs paid as a tithe. The next bitter herb below rue is wormwood and gets its name from its use: it was used as a dewormer in ancient times; it was the wood that is used to remove worms thus "wormwood". There is a spiritual parallel: the most bitter experience for humans is death and just below that is the experience of betrayal. To understand just how bitter betrayal is you have to look at Christ. Psalms 22… Read more »
Bitter herbs have medicinal value; to heal. Bitter experiences can also have value to heal consider the experience of Peter in Luke 22:61-62. Peter had to be shown his cowardice when it came to his faith in Christ or lack there of. I had a bitter experience this week that showed me my sin also. At work we have 220 drivers and runs are bid out according to seniority once a year. A driver quit two weeks ago and his bid which was day shift with weekends off came open and several drivers bid on it. The highest seniority driver… Read more »
The goodness of God can be seen in Proverbs 1:10-19 wisdom teaches to reject the recruiter from evil groups but in 20-33 wisdom teaches not to reject all recruiters because God in the form of wisdom also seeks to recruit men; and what kind of men does wisdom recruit? The simple, the scorner, and the fools (Pr 1:22) this means I have hope for I am a fool. Pr 2 builds on Proverbs 1 telling us that if we do accept the offer of wisdom then we must work for wisdom like we work for any other treasure and if… Read more »
Today's lesson was on the virtue of discretion. You will not see the need for discretion until you learn to see the predators all around you. Wolves in sheep's clothing; but they can be identified by their behavior. I always wondered why Roman soldiers were asking John the baptist how to behave, after all the Romans were gentiles and why would they care what a Jewish prophet taught? It seems to be a mixing between the Jews and the Romans. In other scriptures soldiers were sent to take Jesus and they returned without him they were interrogated by the Jewish… Read more »
My mom passed a few weeks ago after 37 odd years in the church and the love they showed my family and I was exemplary. I told them that, and I told them that I loved what I saw overall. What I saw wasnt the church I grew up in or, maybe I just didnt see some of the things I am old enough to see now, way back when. I dont know but they surely effected my heart in a good way these past few weeks.
I'm glad to hear that, Frank. There are plenty of good people, some of whom I believe are trying to do right and even correct old, unloving ways of doing things. Wherever that happens, I applaud it.
I would caution you and anyone else, however, that the oppression of members' consciences still continues to this day. People are not allowed the freedom to explore the scriptures and dissent with leadership. All differences of opinion on doctrine or church practice is stifled, and that's a problem for any body of believers.
Frank, I am so sorry about your Mom. I hadn't heard, since I am no longer with the group. I'm sure you miss her. I know I am glad that I got to know her in Portland, and got to visit and stay with her during a May meeting! Hope all is well with you and your family. So glad that ones there were kind and loving! Losing a loved one is difficult, something you never get over. Things will never be the same again, but you have many wonderful memories too! She will be sorely missed.Stay in touch, and… Read more »
Thanks Debby….it's going to be an interesting time in my head for sure. Mom decided to battle her breast cancer holistically and it did not pan out. I was vehemently against that idea from the get go….but it wasn't my choice. Still, anger remains, what if this and what if that along with the…..it's so weird knowing that mom no longer walks this earth. Very strange.
This is selfish but I miss the carefree me that existed before all this went down. Life got a little more serious than I personally have a taste for, you know?
Ur welcome, Frank. Grief shows it's face in many different forms. And when you take a good look at the anger you sometimes feel about your Mom's decision to treat her cancer holistically, I'm sure you will see it's another form of grief.And that's ok! I was angry with my Grandma for years because she had the lump in her breast for a full year before she decided to have it checked.Please don't feel guilty or badly about the anger you feel. It will lessen, and one day you will see that it has been replaced with nothing but love… Read more »
God's love is not limited. In the new testament we see many of the early Christians backsliding into Judaism; even the apostle Peter. God gently guided them back into the truth of his son. Gentle leadership is the identifying mark of a righteous leader, harsh leadership of the unrighteous man. If you are not experiencing the love of God in your life then perhaps it is time to find a better leader.
Yesterday's lesson was so good! It was titled "Predatory leaders" and it compared two leaders of God's people: king Solomon and the Apostle Paul. Solomon was the apogee of the jewish kings; he had wisdom, riches, wives, and power without limit. Every jewish man desired to be king Solomon but how did Solomon treat the people in his kingdom? Solomon at the beginning of his reign was loved but toward the end of his reign he was hated. In 1 Kings 12 Solomon's son is told of the heavy burden and whippings Solomon ordered on the people of Israel; Solomon… Read more »
In a talk, a preacher said, if you want to do something humbling, at the next fellowship get up and offer to get somebody a cup of coffee. Jesus said that the greatest amongst us will be those who serve others. In my congregation, you didn't see much of that. Another member, from another congregation stayed at one of the brethren's house during a meeting and commented in their talk how well their cupboards were organized and expounded on it. Nowhere in that talk did they bring up how that brother helps other Christians in need, and remember being in… Read more »
Good leadership starts with self. If one is not studying and pursuing God for their own salvation sake then they are doing it for nefarious motives and are corrupt (and every one that follows them as well.) I was baptized into the Church of Christ and did receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost as did many others who were baptized but realized very quickly that there are many sects (cults) within the church. My teacher was creating a following after himself and at meetings paraded himself around: look at me and all the men I have in my congregation!… Read more »
I believe that a lot of the members were afraid of the teachers and took what they said a doctrine. This is what happened to the off church.
A great leader, like King David, has many courageous and noteworthy followers, like those mentioned in 2 Samuel 23, including but not limited to, Joab, Abishai, Uriah, and Benaiah. A mediocre leader will try to suppress alleged challengers. They will constantly use the Bible as a weapon and demand others subservience because the Bible says to. The Bible tells us to obey others as they obey the Lord, and when a leader departs from God, we are not to follow them. While the Stanton Church of Christ has an excelled doctrine, unfortunately their idea that sin is besetting for all… Read more »
Some of the children, in the Tacoma congregation, told me that they were not becoming members as they saw what was going on. One told me that they saw they were emphasizing more on nondoctrinal teaching than doctrinal teaching. Look how many children over the past 20 years have left their parents who have been Christians for a long time. Even preacher's children are leaving. Children born into the church leaving. Why? There is something wrong and many of the members refuse to acknowledge it. About young preachers, I heard a young preacher, in age and Christianity, say in a… Read more »
Good Point Lynn. I heard one preacher in Tacoma say in a talk that as soon as the kids turned 18 they couldn't get out the door fast enough. He seemed mystified by it. I'm not. While the church has great values, if you can't learn how to forgive and realize God can redeem people, your doctrine is worthless. No kid wants to give their lives to worthless, fake doctrines, which depress the spirits, reduce the morale, decreases the members, while simultaneously suppressing new members. You are absolutely right. The church will blame the culture, and they are right, the… Read more »
If a married woman starts a relationship with another man she is called an adulteress; and if that adulteress teach others that it is okay to commit adultery she is called a Jezebel. If a person worship God and then start also worshiping an idol that person is a spiritual adulterer and if that spiritual adulterer teach others to worship both God and idols the that person is a spiritual Jezebel. The scriptures refer to Jezebel as a woman but men can also be spiritual Jezebels. We had a spiritual Jezebel in my congregation; in a bible class he closed… Read more »
Martin Luther, you mentioned "morale" and this is very important. The way that oppressors work is by suppressing and/or killing morale in people. I, for one, lost a lot of morale as I was quickly losing my joy to come to worship, classes, and even fellowships. I wasn't losing my joy for God, Christianity, or study, but was losing it for to many people who are supposed to be my brethren. Because of their actions I know what they think and how they feel for me. This, of course is for any Christian they did this to. How can I… Read more »
FYI, I deleted a comment with several names in it. Just a reminder, please respect the intent of this blog not to use names when discussing the history or scripturality Stanton's practices.
Kevin, did I do that?
Each congregation has limited resources and a handicap person will demand a portion of the resources, which is natural. When a congregation allows men to be lazy, i.e. not work they must be support by the other members of the congregation with things like free housing, vehicles, daily necessities like food. A handicap person will be viewed as competition for the limited resources by the lazy. When I was first baptized in 1990 we had an older man who was self employed but actually worked little at all. He was a skilled tradesman in both masonary and auto repair but… Read more »
Very few realize the threat that Islam poses to our nation. London just elected it's first Islamic Mayor, and the fastest growing religion in the world is Islam, due to the fact it's women are having children and not running around having fun. Since each woman has 3.1 children, Islam is growing powerful, and Christianity in the United States which is weakening itself with porn, birth control, and abortion is deteriorating. The United States, stupefied with television, sports, the internet, and drugs (one out of three Americans is on a mind altering substance) is indolent, idle and slothful. 96,000,000 Americans… Read more »
Yesterday's lesson was on insidiousness. How do things creep in unaware? The compare and contrast was with two groups of God's people the hebrews of Daniels age, who were under the foreign occupation of the Chaldeans and the Pharisee's who were under the foreign occupation of the Roman's. The people of Daniels time asked to remain separate in what they ate so as not to defile themselves in what they ate. Such a simple thing had great rewards in keeping them pure in God's eyes. The Pharisee's were willing collaborators with their Roman occupiers and great punishment came down upon… Read more »
One of the most annoying traits of narcissists is that they consider themselves the most important people no matter where they are at, or what group of people they are with. If you are having thoughts or daydreams about killing a narcissists leader then realize that you yourself are a narcissist, and your day dreams are narcissist power fantasies. If you believe that all human life is sacrosanct; that is: holy unto God, and because only God can create life then only God can take a life then you will value your fellow humans as equal to yourself, even the… Read more »
The Bible is truly an amazing book, take Proverbs 14:23 for an example. In Pr 14:23 it says that the talk of the lips tendeth only to penury; penury being extreme poverty or destitution. Those who talk to much do little to no real labor and have little to no money therefore I have learned to avoid talkers like the plague, but wisdom is amoral: that is it is neither good nor evil and applies to both the righteous and the wicked whether you want it to or not. Paul the apostle was a man that talked a lot, giving… Read more »
On the surface the wisdom of Solomon written in Proverbs does not seem to make sense. I looked at Solomon as a wealthy powerful king over a great nation and expected that if I studied his wisdom that I too would become wealthy and powerful, that is not what many of the proverbs teach. Proverbs 15:17 is one example it say better is a dinner of herbs; the understanding from a rich and powerful man is that poverty is better than riches. Many other proverbs have similar meanings. When faced with a choice between riches and poverty the wise choice… Read more »
In Mathew 22:21 Christ teaches "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" and it is so full of wisdom that it easily overlooked. When you pay your taxes you get great benefits in return. The social security system is one benefit, and the wives can receive benefits from their husbands work even after the husband dies. Self employed men complain that if they pay their taxes that they will have little left and be poor, yet Christianity is a religion of poverty. In the early church Deacons had to be appointed to look after the widows and today Deacons a just… Read more »
Wisdom is defined as knowledge applied; therefore it would seem the first step into wisdom is to study to obtain knowledge for how can you apply something you do not have? Solomon teaches different though in the first chapter of proverbs, 1:8-9. In Pr 1:8 Solomon says hear the instruction of thy father and forsake not the law of thy mother. Obedience is the first step in wisdom, even before knowledge. Children learn to obey their parents but don't know why; only when they are older do they see the understanding in their parents restrictions. What good is it to… Read more »
Be obedient to the teacher or be obedient to the Bible?
Because of what the preacher from the south was telling me I ask him this question. "Do I follow example or do I follow scripture, as they are not the same" and he had no answer.
Wisdom teaches that when you enjoy pleasure that God gives then get additional benefits. Example when you enjoy the pleasure of eating eat food that is nutritious as well so you will have good health as an added benefit. When you enjoy the pleasure of a mate then enjoy it in the confines of marriage and you will have the added benefit of a life long companion and children to take care of you in you old age. Those that enjoy fornication have short relationships and produce illegitimate children whom are neglected or abandoned and in old age these illegitimate… Read more »
Psalms 34:7 teaches us that the angels of the Lord encampeth around those that fear him and delivereth them. I was taught this as a babe that Christians have God's protection and I have seen this true time and time again. While others are troubled the godly are not; even since I stopped attending God still protects me when I follow his commandments. I was taught that if I ever left the church that I would lose God's protection and this is simply not true; but rather just phobia indoctrination meant to keep you in fear and make you a… Read more »
I need to give a wholehearted "amen" to this, Anonymous 11:37.
That,in short, is the entire aim of this blog; to give hope to those who have left the "Stanton" churches that God is alive and well outside their sect.
God bless,
–Kevin
"Christians are not emotional people" is an especially cruel false teaching. When this false teaching is taught is most interesting; not when your happy and busy doing church work but when you are sad or grieving. In the high demand Church of Christ I was a member of everyone was busy, busy, busy. When a member had a loved one pass away they were not allowed to grieve because "Christians are not emotional people". When your feelings were hurt by a insensitive or cruel teacher you were told that "your are to sensitive" or "Christians are not emotional people". Your… Read more »
Mystical manipulation is practiced in many organizations. The spontaneous occurrences (which in truth are planned out and not spontaneous at all) lead you to believe that God is working here. Through the use of church spies the leaders gather information about you and then bring it out in bible class; and you ask how could they know about that? It must be the Holy Spirit working to reveal things to the teacher or preacher when in truth it is the reporting of members (who have spied on you) the information they have gathered back to leaders and not the Holy… Read more »
I knew your roommate.All I can say is "wow!" Some things are making more sense to me. Thank you for sharing.I don't know even how to explain to people what I went through. This blog, even the angry blogs are helping me to heal. What happened to the Oxnard church? I see its one that folded.
I watched the volkswagen mechanic from the day he showed up in Phoenix. I was single at the time and felt sorry for him. His marriage turned out to be unscriptural and he had to separate from his wife and the mother of his two kids. When he got here I expected him to get two jobs, one to support himself and one to support his family he had to leave behind in Oxnard. Nope, he became the buddy and trainee to the teaching preacher, DS, and financially abandoned his estranged wife and children. Then DS made him a sharing… Read more »
As a man I look to God for my example of what to do as a father. There are around six billion people on this planet and God feeds them all three times a day; that requires a great deal of work on God's part and yet he does not complain about his burden. When I am in need I ask God in prayer for the help I need and he provides for me each and every day. I, as a father, receive many requests from my family for the things they need and I provide without complaint, and the… Read more »
I have wrestled with my response. Wanting to respect the reputation of the precious woman involved. I had moved and only been told of a withdrawal. Of coarse being told details that were not ANY of my business. My point is, I was never told it was a result of support being pulled out from under her. This woman gave up so much for the church. Where was the church during her time of tremendous need? There is a lot posted about overbearing women in the church and rightly so. But, what about those of us with a quiet spirit… Read more »
Thank you Sherry. I never heard about any withdrawal just saw the irresponsible man who created the mess sent to be the hero. If he had fulfilled his obligation to provide financial support in the first place she would have never had to suffer the shame. Women and children need financial support and the law of the land provides for this with alimony and child support. Women who are facing separation and or divorce need to establish both alimony and child support from day one, from their Christian husbands, the woman is entitled to it. Alimony is for life; it… Read more »
Agreed! What message is it sending to the boys? No wonder our children who were raised in the church are angry! What is their worth? Thank God mine still believe in God. They refuse to go to any church now.
I'm grateful for you sharing. You have exposed one of the many secrets not given to the "babes" and outside world.
As I christian man I count poverty a blessing and I have kept myself in poverty to provide for my ex wife and children. Some men seek out riches, and find them, and when they do they become selfish churls. One man who was an evangelist and rich bought himself a toy, a 1950's Chevrolet and starting telling the children in Spring Valley "I am cruising in the fifties!" This man is the epitome of a churl: rich, selfish, and boastful: look at me I have expensive toy cars! Poverty brings many blessings; I have always paid my child support… Read more »
I wanted to add also that if your a woman facing separation and divorce in the church you should not feel guilty about asking for alimony, you both deserve and need the financial support. The teachings of the church is that the woman is to be the keeper of the home and as a result the woman does not develop job skills and the annual pay raises that go with years of service to an employer and will need alimony to survive financially. Alimony is tax deductible for the man so it is not a financial hardship for the man… Read more »
I know that on this blog there has been a lot said about overbearing women in the church. But it has not been shared as to why. What I saw in the congregations I had been in was that men did not step up and take on the responsibilities that are theirs. Men who are married and only work 20-25 hours per week. Men who have their wives doing everything, including taking care of the finances. Men who don't want to do mapping, setting up chairs, sharing in classes, etc. So the women step up and do it. I have… Read more »
One of the identifying marks of a false religion is deceptive recruiting practices. Love bombing is a deceptive recruiting practice because the false religion really does not love you at all; rather it wants to make you a willing victim to the group. When you see new members being loved bombed realize that you are seeing a deceptive recruiting practice and that person will be further deceived into submission to the leader. Many churches have been corrupted by false teachers who have successfully created a following after themselves and drew away the faithful from God in the process. When you… Read more »
A narcissistic leader will corrupt a church into his or her personal cult. A narcissist has to be the most important person in the lives of each and every member of their congregation, more important than the members spouse and children. The narcissist leader will disrupt any bonding between members to remain the most important person in the members life, you have fellow Christians but you really do not know them because you are not allowed to get close to them. One narcissist leader convinced one man that his wife was crazy, (in the Toledo, OH congregation) this disruption of… Read more »
Many people who leave the Merie Weiss sect of the church of Christ are in need of deprogramming. You can deprogram yourself with youtube video's from Margaret Singer, Steven Hassan, and Robert J. Lifton. Margaret Singer explains how cults work from recruitment to exit and has studied many different american cults. Steven Hassan explains how he was recruited into the "Moonies" and how they operate, and how to deprogram. Robert J. Lifton wrote the 1951 book Thought reform and the psychology of totalism in which he explains how a political-religious cult (communism) was able to brainwash people and the same… Read more »
As a man who pays alimony and child support I can say that there are many blessings that go with doing so. A man will lose weight because you will no longer be able to afford pizza, cheeseburgers, or donuts, or other high calorie junk food. When you lose weight you will become healthier and have lower health insurance premiums, and have higher job retention as a result. At my company the boss has told all of us to lose weight or lose your job; my company is a larger company and is self insured so the unhealthy employees cost… Read more »
Where in the world or the Bible for that matter do you get the idea that paying Alimony is some sort of God given lesson for men. As a man who lived with a COC member wife who misdirected both my children, encouraged them away from my love and the love of their other blood family members, I can say that paying alimony to such a self-centered and lazy, un-employed woman is certainly not a blessing, but a life-long reminder of the misery of over 20 years of marriage to the woman. I have plenty of character, much more than… Read more »
Hey KF you are not understanding what is going on. A churl is a rich, selfish, and just plain mean man. A man who does not pay child support is a churl, a man who does not pay alimony to his christian ex wife is a churl. Many preachers in the Stanton group are churls, just plain mean to the women in their lives. The volkswagon mechanic from Oxnard is 100% churl. I watched him tell his estranged wife that he could no longer support her and then the next week it was his son's birthday so he went to… Read more »
Another deceptive recruitment practice of false religion is the recruitment through criticism. By criticizing main line religions the false group in able to draw in new members. One criticism I often heard about the mainline COC's is that they support institutions such as orphanages and colleges. It was often said that if you have an orphan you take it into your home and raise it as your child. This sounds good but i have yet to see a orphanage today and seldom did I see any COC member adopt a child. When you take their criticism and apply it to… Read more »
There are many things that have happened over the years that are perhaps true but really do not contribute to faith building. Why repeat the bad things when it is so important to build each others faith? If any are willing to repent then you will be welcomed back, if you have a desire to return the you can send me a note and please include your name, location today, what congregation you were a part of and I will get back with you to direct you to the nearest congregation. Thank you. 581 Morgan Way, El Cajon, CA 92020
Did you mean to say Include your identity and I will get back AT you through your congregation? Starting to lose faith yourself in the ways you have taught? It seems from all that has been said about you on this blog and the "many things that have happened over the years are perhaps true" (Gary's words) It seems it would be you to repent here in front of those you have damaged. How dare you ignore what both older and younger people that you have affected feel from your influence. You sound like today's politician's. Ignoring all their evil… Read more »
Come on KF do you really think Gary reads or would post his home address on here? Are you that stupid?
Gary, I wrote and pleaded with you on numerous occasions to consider what was going on in our congregation, but you ignored me. You chose, rather, to believe the ones that teaching falsely, berating, lying, and being indifferent because they were "teachers/preachers". I gave proof of what was going on and it was ignored. I gave proof of one preacher murmuring against an older teacher's counsel, another preacher and his wife lying, another preacher threatening me over money, the congregation living in indifference. and a whole host of other sins and was ignored. Your are holding the truth of God… Read more »
I really believe it is Gary. And KF, you have plenty of faults of your own to be degrading anyone else. Nobody hurt you, me, or anyone more than our own wrong choices. You'd be a lot less bitter if you took a look at all your wrong choices and stopped pointing out everyone elses. Gary is a good man, and like you, not perfect. It does you no good to constantly attack him, while neglecting to mention what has harmed you most. Your choices.
To Gary: I have doubts that you are the Gary that is the evangelist in El Cajon. But I do have to ask you-of what should these ones repent? That they have told the truth about what happened to them while in the Stanton group? That they dared to criticize the group? That they dared to disagree with them on some issues?Whether the group wants to admit it or not, it is the group that needs to repent! After I left the group, I studied cults and was shocked to see how many identifying markers the Stanton group matched. The… Read more »
Personally I think that Anonymous on August 11 was being sarcastic. No one in their right mind sees it as a good thing to pay alimony so they can lose weight.What I think all of you are forgetting is that child support is for BOTH parent's children. And if you think that it actually pays for half of what it costs to raise a child, then you need to go see an accountant and have the facts given to you.Also, alimony is due to the spouse. Have you all forgotten that marriage includes the two of you? You BOTH made… Read more »
How to prove your teacher is more important to you than your wife: When your wife is in the hospital having a baby go out and do the personal work. This is known as putting God first. I have seen this occur in the churches that even when a woman is having trouble with a pregnancy and could really use her husbands support during child birth the man is instructed to "put God first" and go out and do the personal work. Now if God is love and your wife is in need is it not also equally true that… Read more »
Phobia indoctrination is where fears are implanted into the members minds to give irrational fears that if you ever leave the group, or question the groups teachings terrible things are going to happen to you. In the SCOC this is done by telling stories of woe that happen to ex members, how bad there life becomes. One story was of a man who left but his wife remained and the father started telling his children that they did not have to go to church any more and that week while on the job his nail gun went off and a… Read more »
What about if you beat your son he shall not surely die. It was used to give authority to "dicipline" even babies for not sitting still or just being kids. So, we spanked and disciplined harshly out of fear. Another for me was not knowing sin. What I never thought would be sin one week was sin the next. Or someone giving confession for going against their conscience and all of the sudden it was bound to all. Fear of dying even in the church and not certain I was going to heaven. We never knew where we stood with… Read more »
I really believe it is Gary. And KF, you have plenty of faults of your own to be degrading anyone else. Nobody hurt you, me, or anyone more than our own wrong choices. You'd be a lot less bitter if you took a look at all your wrong choices and stopped pointing out everyone elses. Gary is a good man, and like you, not perfect. It does you no good to constantly attack him, while neglecting to mention what has harmed you most. Your choices.
Y'ALL R ALL TEllNG LIES BECAUSE I KNOW ALL ABOUT THE STANTON CHURCH…… Your just mad because you got withdrawn from the church… " The Church of Christ" is the only truth.